[jo kus]

Now we have our Church/church leaders stating Jews, Muslins and who know who else are covered under the covenant of God.

Isn't the New Covenant open to ALL men? Didn't Christ die for the remission of the sin of the WORLD? Paul in Romans wrote that EVERYONE had God's "Law" written on their hearts. They had NO EXCUSE for not following God. I see the Catholic position as the natural development of Christ and Paul's teachings. Your view appears to be rather exclusive, similar more to the ancient Jews than to Christianity and the concept of catholicity (universal).

I believe I can rest assured in my salvation but I can't know about others based upon what scripture tells me.

Listen, Harley. I feel that today, if I were to die, I would not go to hell - I feel that Christ abides in me. Proof of that is that I obey the commandment, I love others. Not perfectly, certainly. But 1 John is a wonderful testimony on how we can know we are abiding in Christ. And it is by our love. So yes, I, as a Catholic, can say I have moral assurance that I am "saved". I don't know absolutely, but based on God's promises in Scripture, I feel pretty sure.

My concern, brother, is PRESUMING that I am of the elect and that I CANNOT FALL. This is totally against Scripture. We must continue to walk in Christ. Just because I walk in Christ today doesn't guarantee I will continue next year in Christ. All of us go through crisis of faith, bouts of doubt, temptations, etc. Paul warns against presumption. He HIMSELF says he continues his work so as not to be disqualified! Thus, I disagree with you here. That Harley can know he is of the elect - so that even in 20 years, you KNOW you are saved. There is nothing in Scripture that guarantees that. We base our judgments of walking in the Lord based on today or the past, not the future.

You've told me that even though you must come to God you really don't know if you have God's grace. Therefore you must work for God to secure your salvation.

I didn't say I couldn't know I have God's Graces! 1 John, again, clearly states that if I am obeying the commandments, if I am loving, then Christ is abiding within me. The Church teaches that we receive graces as a result of the Sacraments - even if my disposition is imperfect - I still receive grace. I receive grace when I read Scriptures or pray. Of course I can know I am receiving grace. The question is whether all of this has ANYTHING to do with the distant future.

I know people who appeared very strong in their faith. They denied the possibility of falling. They went off to mission in Africa. They saw so much hunger and death, it shook them. They fell away - "how could God allow such suffering to children?" The point - you do NOT know what your future holds. Thus, it is a sin of presumption to make the claim that YOU are of the elect. We cannot see into the future. We must then continue in our walk with Christ. This is not "work". We are not earning anything. But God expects us to walk in faith throughout our lives.

Regards

[HarleyD]

Isn't the New Covenant open to ALL men? Didn't Christ die for the remission of the sin of the WORLD?

No, Christ blood covers only those who accept Him as their Lord. Christ did not die for everyone.

Your view appears to be rather exclusive

The Church/church has always held this view until recently. It is a warp perspective on theology and the history of the Church/church to include everyone.

My concern, brother, is PRESUMING that I am of the elect and that I CANNOT FALL. This is totally against Scripture. We must continue to walk in Christ.

Do you believe that our Lord Jesus is powerful enough that He can keep you and will help to see you home? If He wants to save you do you think He will keep you?

He HIMSELF says he continues his work so as not to be disqualified!

Paul was talking about his works and reputation. How many ministers and priests have "ship wreak" their ministries by doing something foolish? Those who are true believers haven't lost their salvation but they certainly have caused a number of people to stumble. Undoubtedly they've lost rewards.

I know people who appeared very strong in their faith. They denied the possibility of falling. They went off to mission in Africa. They saw so much hunger and death, it shook them. They fell away - "how could God allow such suffering to children?" The point - you do NOT know what your future holds.

This is a beautiful and glorious creation tainted by the evil and corruption of man. I'm reminded of this every time I look at a beautiful field or forest and see litter thrown about. It is a perfect analogy of how man corrupts everything of God. And yet He loves us. People see the litter and wonder where is God. They don't see the forest.

People do fall away. John writes they were never believers to begin with. They might seem like the greatest Christian ever but let a trial come their way and they denounce everything. Some have no roots.

Others, true believers like Peter, fall but then shuffle back. It may be the next day, the next month, or ten years. Who knows but I wouldn't make the assumption they have lost their faith. You can't see all ends.

I don't know what the future holds. Our faith is not centered around trying to make sense of a corrupt and dying world along with all the injustices that takes place. Our faith should be centered around understanding that God is just and wise and is going to rectify this entire situation justly. If not on earth then certainly in the our next life.