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To: HarleyD; Forest Keeper
Amen. It all gets back to the most basic error -- to presume that man is intrinsically good and wants to obey God.

But Paul is correct. "There is none righteous; no not one."

All error begins with a misreading or a complete disregard of Genesis. The fall was complete and is indelibly stamped in the hearts of all men.

Only God can give a new heart.

"Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?" -- Ecclesiastes 7:13

And our faith is in Him who rose from the dead to prove the truth of God...

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain." -- Phil. 2:15-16


3,284 posted on 03/06/2006 10:54:00 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
presume that man is intrinsically good

That's what God said, you know.

3,288 posted on 03/06/2006 11:23:08 AM PST by annalex
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"But Paul is correct. "There is none righteous; no not one.""

Dear Dr. Eckleburg -

God bless you for your love of scripture but I think you are missing the point there. You quote that verse in Romans a lot but you leave out 4 very important words.

AS IT IS WRITTEN, There is none righteous; no not one.

As it is written is the key. Where is it written? It is written in Psalm 14. Read it here:

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm14.htm

Psalm 14 is about fools who deny God:

...Fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is right.

The LORD looks down from heaven upon the human race, To see if even one is wise, if even one seeks God.

All have gone astray; all alike are perverse. Not one does what is right, not even one.

Will these evildoers never learn?


They devour my people as they devour bread; they do not call upon the LORD.

They have good reason, then, to fear; God is with the company of the just.

They would crush the hopes of the poor, but the poor have the LORD as their refuge. ...


This is about the fools that deny God. (Atheists and evil-doers.) The FOOLS who deny God are the ones whose deeds are loathsome and corrupt. The fools who deny God have all gone astray. The fools who deny God are perverse. None of the fools who deny God do what is right, not even one of those fools.

This verse does not refer to everyone who ever lived. This only refers to the fools that deny God. Plenty of people are called righteous in both the Old and New Testament. I am sure there are righteous people even today. You can read the accompanying psalms for a better context.

3,290 posted on 03/06/2006 11:39:39 AM PST by Nihil Obstat
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
All error begins with a misreading or a complete disregard of Genesis. The fall was complete and is indelibly stamped in the hearts of all men.

IF the fall was complete, then explain my tagline and many more verses like it that call for man to obey God's commandments? I would agree that men cannot, over the course of a life, never sin. He will falter eventually. But God doesn't expect perfection from His children, only those who try to SAVE THEMSELVES through the Law. He expects us to conform to His gifts of grace - grace that we can foresake.

"Unless YOUR righteousness exceeds the Scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the Kingdom of heaven" (Mat 5:20). When we abide in Christ and He in us, OUR righteousness can exceed the Scribes and Pharisees. But it is still OUR righteousness.

Regards

3,291 posted on 03/06/2006 11:45:25 AM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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