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To: kosta50; stripes1776; Forest Keeper; jo kus
Gobblygook is something you should be familiar with, HD

because in your world God does everything and we do nothing.

Look at Christ and tell me that He matches the Reformed idea of God!...He was nothing like the God of the OT or the pagans.

I have said it before and I will say it again: Adam and Eve made a decision to disobey and fell from God's grace

If we are to defeat death and sin we need to follow Christ in His steps.

Unlike your theology of complete depravity, most of the Christian world recognizes that we are more than just His tools. That much is obvious from the message of Christ.


3,226 posted on 03/05/2006 3:46:23 AM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: HarleyD; kosta50; Forest Keeper; jo kus; Kolokotronis
That is one of the primary reason I believe Augustine and Calvin are correct. You are viewing Christ under a Greek interpretation of God.

In St. Augustine's doctrine of massa perditionis, man is burdened with personal guilt and sin, but God, for utterly mysterious reasons, selects from the this mass of men only a limited number for salvation. Here is one passage from his De Natura et Gratia that helps form his doctrine of selective predestination:

Therefore this grace of Christ, without which neither infants nor grown-up people can be saved, is not given in return for merits, but given freely, which is why it is called grace. `Justified', the Apostle says, `freely by his blood'. Hence those who are not freed by it, whether because they were not yet able to hear or were unwilling to obey, or even because, since by reason of their age they were unable to hear, they did not receive the washing of new birth, which they could have received and by which they would have been saved, are altogetlier justly damned, because they are not without sin, either because they drew it from their origin or because they added to it by their bad behaviour; for `all have sinned'-whether in Adam or themselves-'and need the glory of God.' The whole mass, therefore, is liable to punishment, and if all were given the torment of damnation which is owing to them, they would, without doubt, not be given it unjustly.

By constast, here is a passage from St. John Chrysostom's First Baptismal Instruction:

You see, beloved, that my discourse concerns the soul. For a physical ugliness of the body could never change into beauty; the Master has prescribed that nature be subject neither to motion nor change. But in the case of the soul, such change is easy and very simple. Why is this and how is it possible? With the soul, it is entirely a matter of free choice rather than of a nature subject to necessity. Therefore if a deformed and extremely ugly soul has suddenly willed to do so, it can change itself, it can ascend to the summit of beauty and again become comely and graceful; if it again grows careless, it can again be swept down into the utmost ugliness.

I am not the first to make the observation that in Eastern Christian theology (except when under strong Western influence), there is no place for original guilt and this has significant implications for the understanding of the nature of man, the soul, and God.

3,231 posted on 03/05/2006 9:38:45 AM PST by stripes1776
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To: HarleyD; stripes1776; Forest Keeper; jo kus; Kolokotronis
No Calvinist states that God does everything and we do nothing

Trying to wiggle out if it now, hey? Not only do you say that we are "dead" but that there is an excess of us "tools," of which God made too many just so He can use some and throw away the rest! That's what your theology is saying. You deny deny that we have free will; animals have no free will because they have no reason. But according to you, we are worse than than: we are no different than a hammer.

If we have no free will, we can't do anything on our own, HD. We can be either led by satan or by God, but at no time do we make rational decisions. We are slaves whether to sin or to righteousness, but we are slaves (i.e. not free) either way — always someone's useful "tools."

We simply state that it is God who changes men and help us to grow. He GIVES us everything so that we may be doing His work. He is rather busy you know

Really? Then you can be Orthodox or Roman Catholic, because it is precisely the teaching of the Church that God always makes the first move. But you left out the most important thing: the irresistible grace. Contrary to Scripture, your theology claims that we can not reject God.

Oh?!? And did God somehow change from the Old to the New? Perhaps He took one of those self help courses?

Very "funny." God does not change; our misinterpretation of Him does. Christ walked among people and Gospels tell us exactly what He was like. Let me tell you, no one in the Old Testament imaged God as humble. Oh, no, that would be a "weak" God for you. God did not become Incarnate and appeared bigger than life. He did not stomp on His enemies and razed cities to the ground. No, He taught that we should love our enemies and that we should not resist the evil one.

Eve made no decision to disobey. The scriptures state that Eve was deceived at least twice

But she thought she was choosing good, didn't she? To paraphrase Thomas Merton, when we choose evil it is not because we think of it as evil, but as good. It is a decision, nonetheless. The fact that she was deceived does not change that fact no matter how wrong her decision was.

3,238 posted on 03/05/2006 3:58:38 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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