Still having a problem placing God within time, aren't you! God doesn't "guess"! Think about this. God sees the first day of creation and the last day of the earth's existence as it is as one NOW. So how can God guess anything? He sees your decisions yesterday, today, and tommorrow all at once. He saw this before your birth, and He saw this in 2050.
Again, only those without full information. You say that God loves those from whom He withholds this information (grace). This doesn't make sense.
God gives everyone enough information to be saved or choose the good that they read in their hearts.
How does God "involve Himself" in a man's decision to go to Hell? No man would choose Hell with full information.
Some people do NOT want to love, to serve. Some people do NOT desire to love. What sort of heaven would it be to force someone who doesn't want to love or be loved into the eternal presence of LOVE itself? So God gives them what they want - a "place" where He is not.
Eph. 1:4-6 : 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
Is it your opinion that Paul is including ALL Christians, all who have spoken on a Sunday afternoon the "sinner's prayer"?
That depends on your definition of "absolute assurance", which, as of the post I am responding to, you still have not given me.
Nothing sinister here. Absolute assurance means that there is absolutely no chance of you falling away. We just don't have that level of knowledge. That is why we have hope.
If someone is of the elect, he WILL say some equivalent of the prayer and it WILL count. God has ordained it already.
Over and over, I have said "we don't know absolutely that we are of the elect". What evidence do you have that a person can say, without any possibility of being wrong, that they are of the elect? If you have nothing to respond with, then there is no point in claiming that you have absolute assurance. If you can ever potentially claim that a Christian's sinner's prayer was ineffective and didn't save, then there is NO ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE. How much clearer can I be? If you don't know your sinner's prayer took, where is the absolute assurance?
There are no gymnastics. (regarding the Sinner's Prayer and absolute assurance of being of the elect} I didn't set it up, but that's how God's promises work.
Sorry, you'll have to do something other than assert that you are irrefutably part of the elect without any sort of evidence or proof. God's promises are for those who follow Him, not for those who make a one-time claim and then next month do something totally against God's ways.
Paul presumes that those Christians he write to will CONTINUE walking the walk.
The word "presumes" means that he understands that they as a COMMUNITY will continue - but he realizes that some WITHIN the community will not. We will know who is of the community of the elect by one's CONTINUED walk. As long as we pick up our cross and follow our Lord, we are of the elect (from our point of view). But if we drop the cross and go of and do OUR will and not God's will, are we STILL of the elect? Who can know if it was God's foreknowledge that one would fall away?
"Saved" ALSO means to heal. You left out other, perhaps more prominent definitions. Here is something from a website called "Truth or Tradition?"
Nothing in there suggests permanancy. The word 'saved' does not preclude the necessity of being saved again...
Once again, 'Yes', the payment Christ made was sufficient to pay for the sins of all mankind, even if God had willed that all would go to Heaven. But since not all go to Heaven, then it really only matters to the elect. That's all I'm saying in the above comment.
No, your statement "Christ paid for all the sins of His elect, past, present, and future." only implies that Christ went to the cross ONLY for the elect. This is against the Scriptures. Christ died for all men - but some CHOOSE not to accept this gift. See the tagline below.
Regards
I know God doesn't guess, but I'm trying to figure out how your theology gets around that very conclusion. You have to balance man's free will with God's omniscience. (I don't, but you do.) I would imagine this is very tricky. It's a chicken and egg argument, who made the first move? It appears that the Catholic solution is to magically declare a SIMULTANEOUS occurrence! God chose a particular man to be in His elect at the precise moment that He foresaw that the man would choose God.
If man really chooses first, then this technique absolves you from having to admit that man determines his own salvation, because it is hidden in "simultaneousness". However, if God chooses first, then you can still preserve free will, because it is hidden in "simultaneousness". It is very clever, but as of the post I am responding to now, no one has explained how any of this works. Obviously, it is no where in the Bible.
God gives everyone enough information to be saved or choose the good that they read in their hearts.
You must be kidding. According to your beliefs, God gave everyone reasonably enough information, of course tailored to the individual's capacities, etc., to make a decision between spending eternity, in God's presence, in perfect Heaven with all love abounding infinitely all around us, OR burning for all eternity in a fiery pit, with wailing and weeping and gnashing of teeth in eternal pain and torment? Part of me wants to agree with you that this is a very difficult choice, seeing as how God gave everyone enough information. :)
However, I just can't bring myself to think that people with the "enough" information that you say God gives everyone would actively choose Hell over Heaven. Since everyone has been graced with "enough" information, put yourself into the shoes of a person who chose against God. What would the plus-minus column look like, with "enough" information?
Some people do NOT want to love, to serve. Some people do NOT desire to love.
I agree with you. Why would you say that is? Chance? Does that lack of desire seem consistent to you with the basic human animal? I would assume you would say that this is them choosing against God, whereas I would say it is God not granting grace. Could God put love into these hearts if He wanted to? If you say 'yes', then it is a sign of His respect and love for them when He decides not to do so, because it would interfere with their free will?
[Re: Eph. 1:4-6] Is it your opinion that Paul is including ALL Christians, all who have spoken on a Sunday afternoon the "sinner's prayer"?
No, only His elect. Isn't the number of Americans who call themselves "Christian" over 80%? Clearly, not all of them are of the elect.
Absolute assurance means that there is absolutely no chance of you falling away. We just don't have that level of knowledge. That is why we have hope.
That's a very high standard, but I'll take it because God is good on His promises. I would need to know more on how you define "falling away". Surely it happens that saved Christians go through dark times and neglect their faiths, but God always pulls His elect through. Every single time. You say that your unassurance is why you have "hope". But, as I said long, long, ago, "hope" means much more than "wish for".
If you can ever potentially claim that a Christian's sinner's prayer was ineffective and didn't save, then there is NO ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE. How much clearer can I be? If you don't know your sinner's prayer took, where is the absolute assurance?
You have always looked for the guarantee in the wrong place. You have always looked to the mouth of "Johnny Sinner", as he says his prayer, for your guarantee. It's not there. The guarantee is in God's word. His word will show whether Johnny's prayer was any good or not. Since I can only speak for myself, I am confident in my assurance, and that my prayer "took". :)
Sorry, you'll have to do something other than assert that you are irrefutably part of the elect without any sort of evidence or proof. God's promises are for those who follow Him, not for those who make a one-time claim and then next month do something totally against God's ways.
Wow! You're strict. What would you accept as evidence or proof? How many God points do I need? :) You surprise me when you say that God's promises are only for those who follow Him, but do not make a mistake (presumably any time) later. What is the use of confession, if God's promises are of no value to any person who sins after being baptized? With due apologies to all other Protestants I do feel that I can speak for all of us on this point: we all do make mistakes and not follow God from time to time. According to you, therefore, God's promises are not to us. That's OK. I will give you that you are consistent.
Paul presumes that those Christians he write to will CONTINUE walking the walk.
Please indicate when you are quoting yourself. :) I know you usually do, so no problem. I just got confused for a minute. :)
As long as we pick up our cross and follow our Lord, we are of the elect (from our point of view). But if we drop the cross and go off and do OUR will and not God's will, are we STILL of the elect?
Your question "are we still of the elect?" says everything. When it comes to the elect, there is no "still". One is either a member from before time began and for all time, or one is not, and never will be. God is the only judge of what "falling away" means, how long and how much. That's another reason why we are so careful not to speculate on the salvation of others.
FK: "Saved" ALSO means to heal. You left out other, perhaps more prominent definitions. Here is something from a website called "Truth or Tradition?"
Nothing in there suggests permanency. The word 'saved' does not preclude the necessity of being saved again...
Nothing suggests permanency??? Here is a repeat post of a quote from the website:
"Therefore we define “salvation” as a state of being saved, rescued or delivered from something that threatens death or destruction, that is, being brought to a place of safety. The Hebrew word for “salvation” also means a place of safety (yasha). Logically, if we are still in jeopardy of somehow losing this salvation, we are not in a very “safe” place."
When you read this, you get no idea of permanency from the author? The last sentence doesn't seal it?
You have to invent the idea of being saved over and over again. (Not you personally, of course :) You also must throw into the trash the normal meaning of the word "saved", past tense. What do you think Jesus meant when He said "It is finished"? Does He have more work to do to pay for our sins?
Christ died for all men - but some CHOOSE not to accept this gift. See the tagline below. ["I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19"]
I just wanted to point out that you are quoting Moses, even though it sounds like the quote might be from God. And, no, I'm not accusing you of anything. :) My point is only that the POV is human and not divine.