Just as the prophets of the OT, the Apostles passed to their successors the role of leadership in the community. I don't see the Apostles passed "supernatural" powers such as the ability to heal. The Apostles passed along their powers to bind and loosen, their power to forgive sins, their power to teach and preach - all of these refer more to leadership roles than to "prophetic" or "miraculous" works. Actually, it is quite interesting reading about how these two roles in the community often were at odds with each other...
As for protecting the Church, I do believe God continued to do that. Wasn't the Reformation about the views that some had that the Catholic hierarchy was negligent in its duties to cooperate with continuing correct teaching? Who's to say that the Reformation wasn't God actually protecting the Church? :)
Or the devil infiltrating it. The Reformation went too far. It's one thing to want to reform perceived abuses within the community. It is quite another to leave the Church established by Christ to start another "church". There is absolutely no precedent for this anywhere in the Bible. Just because a few people want to run things differently in the Church, the Church is supposed to concede? Who is protected by God, individuals with their own opinions, or the entire Church by the Spirit?
I'm not saying that, we just disagree on the exclusivity of the keys to God's Church
I don't see God as giving the keys to anyone but Peter. Where does Christ give the keys of the Kingdom to anyone else? Again, you are going way beyond what the Bible says, or even implies.
{Does the Bible make itself the measuring stick of our beliefs} It does if you believe it is God's word, and not the word of men (with "guidance").
Where does Scripture limit God's Word to the written format? I have asked this question over and over, but I have yet to hear an answer. This, again my fried, is another of those traditions of men that limit the Word of God to what is written in a collection of writings called "the Bible".
I could be wrong on some things. I can admit that. You can't. Your belief is governed by men. They tell you that God leads them and you believe them. That is fine. They just don't lead me. God does instead.
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the [same] night in which he was betrayed took bread: 1 Cor 11:23
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Cor 15: 1-3
if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. Phil 4: 8-9
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. 1 Thes 2:13
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 2 Thes 3:6
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. Gal 1: 8-11
Read and heed, brother. This is the Gospel of Christ. Handed down through men. In the Scriptures, Paul is not saying the Gospel is from men. The Bible is part of that. If you don't believe the men who gave us the Bible, then you don't believe the teachings found within the Bible. Paul doesn't seem to agree with you - what was passed down to us is the Word of God, not the word of men. When you say you "follow God", are you sure about that??
I'm taking this whole statement {If you don't believe enough, then your sinner's prayer didn't "take" and your salvation was never accomplished} as a good natured ribbing my brother. :) You've suffered through too many of my posts to think that is what we believe! :)
Well, look at it from my point of view. A person claims to be saved eternally for heaven by reciting the Sinner's Prayer - but then later, if that "eternally saved" person falls away, people claim that the Sinner's Prayer wasn't said with enough faith...Brother, I am not "ribbing" you. Try to look at this from an unbiased point of view. How can a person say "I am saved by grace alone", then go back and say "I was never saved to begin with, because I didn't beleive enough"????
Think about it. That is not Saved by Grace alone. Your salvation is now dependent upon how fervently you recited the Sinner's Prayer...
Christ was Baptized after the age of reason, and as a believer, exactly how we do it. :)
I suppose Christ could have been baptized as an infant and then went out to teach the masses about the Kingdom, but then what sort of faith would have been necessary to believe that He was the Messiah IF an infant was talking and doing miracles?
Return to the Lord your God, for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness; and He relents from doing harm. Who knows if He will turn and relent, And leave a blessing behind Him-- a grain offering and a drink offering For the Lord your God? Blow the trumpet in Zion, consecrate a fast, call a sacred assembly; Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, Assemble the elders, gather the children and nursing babes;. Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber, and the bride from her dressing room. Let the priests, who minister to the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar; Let them say, "Spare Your people, O Lord(all of them, including the infants) and do not give Your heritage to reproach, that the nations should rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples,'Where is their God?'...
And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. Joel 2: 13-17, 28-29
Regards
In other words, by word of mouth or in writing. It also clearly states that we should stand fast by the same written and spoken traditions which we have been taught, and not which we taught ourselves by reading the Scripture.
The Jews certainly saw forgiving sins as a supernatural power, and if any "man" tried to do it, it was blasphemy. They hated Jesus for it. I sort of see your belief as God having delegated His sole authority on these matters to men. Not only that, but He also delegated the further delegation of that sole authority that God (used to?) have. If instead of going to confession, a Catholic just decided to confess his sins to God directly, would that "count"? :)
The Reformation went too far. It's one thing to want to reform perceived abuses within the community. It is quite another to leave the Church established by Christ to start another "church". There is absolutely no precedent for this anywhere in the Bible.
I suppose the way I see it is that what the Reformers did was 1/100th as radical as what the early Jews did when they converted to Christianity. While it might be true that Paul and Barnabas did not split over doctrine, it is an example of good Christians having differences and going their separate ways. That's what happened with the Reformation, albeit that it was over doctrine. We all still believe that Christ died for our sins and that salvation is through Christ alone, and through no one else.
I don't see God as giving the keys to anyone but Peter. Where does Christ give the keys of the Kingdom to anyone else?
Your whole theology has the exclusive keys of the Kingdom in only the hands of your leaders, hundreds of thousands of them or maybe millions across time. According to you, I think, God didn't give Peter one key, He gave him an infinite number of keys to be given out freely, but exclusively. This will go on until the second coming. God delegates away His authority to men.
Where does Scripture limit God's Word to the written format? I have asked this question over and over, but I have yet to hear an answer.
The answer is that I don't know that it says that anywhere in scripture. That is the answer. But, from your side, since when does anything need to be in scripture to be true? :) You believe in tons of things that are not in scripture. You are trying to have it both ways. I say that I do believe in sola scriptura as authority, and in the same breath I can say that I'm sure I would have no problem with anywhere from some to many things in Tradition. It's just in the cases when Tradition and scripture do not match, by plain reading, that I have "issues". :)
Read and heed, brother. This is the Gospel of Christ. Handed down through men. In the Scriptures, Paul is not saying the Gospel is from men. The Bible is part of that. If you don't believe the men who gave us the Bible, then you don't believe the teachings found within the Bible. Paul doesn't seem to agree with you - what was passed down to us is the Word of God, not the word of men. When you say you "follow God", are you sure about that??
Thank you for all the verses. I've never had any problem with the fact that the Apostles taught the truth. I also believe that the Apostles wrote down much of what they taught in writings that are now the Bible. I believe those are consistent. The huge disconnect, of course, is when Tradition is required to twist the meaning of scripture into something it doesn't say. That's what I don't understand.
How can a person say "I am saved by grace alone", then go back and say "I was never saved to begin with, because I didn't believe enough"???? Think about it. That is not Saved by Grace alone. Your salvation is now dependent upon how fervently you recited the Sinner's Prayer...
Because it's the grace that does the saving, not the words alone. A person to whom saving grace has not been given can say the sinner's prayer a thousand times. It would make no difference, he is still not saved, or "he was never saved to begin with". Since only God can have divine knowledge of who is saved, I give the benefit of the doubt to anyone saying the sinner's prayer, until there is evidence that he was, in fact, never saved. Salvation has zero to do with how fervently someone says the prayer. It has 100% to do with whether or not the person has been chosen of the elect and been given saving grace.