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What I thought made you nuts about my post was the idea that the Jews and Romans actually had the free will to crucify Christ or not crucify Christ. Then it turned out that it actually made you nuts for me to suggest that humans had killed Christ.

From your perspective, this would take away from God's sovereignty if these men voluntarily chose to crucify Christ, as opposed to God forcing them to do it in a grandly predestined pageantry about which they had no alternative. It would also take away from Christ's sovereignty if humans caused his death, as opposed to Christ deciding to die and just doing it at that particular moment.

The hymnology of the Orthodox Church is clear. It speaks of Christ "voluntarily ascending the Cross" (an obviously poetic way of saying that Christ was not helpless, and could, as the Scriptures say, have called down legions of angels.) It speaks of Christ voluntarily giving up his Spirit. One of the most beautiful and moving hymns in the Church is at Matins of Holy Friday during the reading of the 12 Passion Gospels:

Today He who hung the earth upon the waters is hung upon the Cross.
He who is King of the angels is arrayed in a crown of thorns.
He who wraps the heavens in clouds is wrapped in the purple of mockery.
He who in Jordan set Adam free receives blows upon His face.
The Bridegroom of the Church is transfixed with nails.
The Son of the Virgin is pierced with a spear.
We venerate Thy Passion, O Christ.
Show us also Thy glorious Resurrection. (Fifteenth Antiphon)

It couldn't be more clear from Scripture and tradition that Christ was all-powerful God, and allowed himself as a man to be crucified and killed. As the Creator of the universe, he was obviously not helpless. The question is this: did Christ have a real human body, i.e. that would die if he was crucified -- that he would die if you did something to his body that would kill any other human being *unless* he used his power as God not to die? Did he have a human body like ours? Was he really fully human as well as fully Godn?

Or was the passion and crucifixion basically a sort of didactic pageantry that had no real relation to Christ's death? Did his hanging on the Cross have absolutely nothing to do with why he died at the 9th hour on that particular Friday afternoon, or was it simply a charade designed to make it look like he had died of crucifixion when really he just hung there for a while and then decided to turn off his body and die? If there was no physical reason for him to die, and he just decided to die, then as Kosta points out, this would be self murder.

And if Christ had no human physical reason whatsoever to die, and just turned his body off, then what about his suffering and passion? Was that real? And if it was real, what or who was the cause of it? Since humans were unable to kill him, according to your argument, then it would stand to reason that humans were incapable of inflicting injury or pain on him either. The nails being driven into his hands were not only being driven by the soldiers because God was controlling them and making them do it -- the nails could only have hurt because Christ/God caused the pain. The driving of the nails by a human being could not have caused the pain, since the crucifixion by men couldn't have caused his death.

Perhaps you are making that exact point, since a certain strain of Western theology is big on the fact that God demanded satisfaction, and only something as gruesome as the passion and crucifixion would get the job done. God would have to be the one torturing his own Son (or torturing himself), since he had to torture and kill someone. Someone had to pay.

You wrote: "Did God allow men to kill a physically helpless Jesus, or did God allow Jesus to freely give His life."

You are right that these two are very different. But again, this is a false dichotomy that I as an Orthodox Christian simply would not accept. You posit a choice between a helpless Christ and an all-powerful Christ. How about "an all-powerful Christ freely allowed men to kill him by choosing not to stop them or fight back"? He chose to remain as dumb "as a sheep before the shearers."

The Scriptures are clear, from Christ's own words, that Christ was always all-powerful through his entire passion. He acknowledged to Pilate that Pilate had the authority and ability to put him to death, but told Pilate that he only had that authority because it had been given to him by God.

Christ voluntarily allowed humans to torture and kill him. Does that make him helpless? Hardly.

Furthermore, Christ in his human will did not want to die. In the monothelete controversy that led up to the 6th Ecumenical Council, this was a major point of discussion. What St. Maximus insisted on (and the fathers of the Council agreed) was that in the garden of Gethsemene, we see Christ's human will, praying to God: "let this cup pass from me." Jesus as a human being didn't want to die -- for wanting to live is human good. Wanting to die is a sin for us humans.

But then Christ says, "not my will, but thine be done." And with those words, he placed his human will into submission to the divine will that he allow this to happen to him for the salvation of mankind. In other words, in the Garden, we see direct Scriptural evidence that not only did Christ have a human nature and a divine nature, but also a human will and a divine will -- that were in perfect synergia. The second Adam undid the choice of the first Adam by exercising his human will in perfect obedience to his divine will.

As Orthodox Christians, we have no problem in accepting that Christ was transcendent and uncircumscribable God *and* fully human in every way, except that he chose not to sin. We have no problem in believing that men freely chose to plot against Christ and kill him, and that Christ freely chose to allow this to happen. We have no problem in understanding that Christ foreknew how all of these events would take place, and inspired the prophets to speak of these future events -- and that he did not make anyone do these things to him.

We certainly do not believe that God is the cause of suffering, torture, pain, and death -- either by direct action or by making other humans do those things to him or to each other.

I suppose it was parts of both. The key for me was when (I think) you said that they CHOSE to kill Him. I thought you meant so against His will and I saw this as in opposition to the idea that Christ freely gave up His life for us.

From your perspective, this would take away from God's sovereignty if these men voluntarily chose to crucify Christ, as opposed to God forcing them to do it in a grandly predestined pageantry about which they had no alternative. It would also take away from Christ's sovereignty if humans caused his death, as opposed to Christ deciding to die and just doing it at that particular moment.

Yes, if these men had the power on their own to enforce their decision to do this it would take away from God's sovereignty. However, the only alternative is not that God forced them to do it. God did not enter into Judas and force the betrayal, satan did. God allowed it because it was part of His plan to save His elect, but God was not the author of the evil.

The hymnology of the Orthodox Church is clear. It speaks of Christ "voluntarily ascending the Cross" (an obviously poetic way of saying that Christ was not helpless, and could, as the Scriptures say, have called down legions of angels.)

That is great to hear. OK, I'm not nuts anymore. :) Thanks much for the hymn.

The question is this: did Christ have a real human body, i.e. that would die if he was crucified -- that he would die if you did something to his body that would kill any other human being *unless* he used his power as God not to die? Did he have a human body like ours? Was he really fully human as well as fully God? ... How about "an all-powerful Christ freely allowed men to kill him by choosing not to stop them or fight back"? ... Christ voluntarily allowed humans to torture and kill him. Does that make him helpless? Hardly.

I agree with this view. I would answer all of your questions here, except the last one, 'Yes'. I do think that the man Jesus really did suffer and His body really did die. The Passion was real. He was 100% God and 100% human.

Since humans were unable to kill him, according to your argument, then it would stand to reason that humans were incapable of inflicting injury or pain on him either.

I believe that humans were unable to kill Him against His will. God allowed the evil to take place because it was part of His plan that Christ would be the sacrifice for the elect.

Furthermore, Christ in his human will did not want to die.

I agree, being fully human it is a built-in instinct to want to live.

We certainly do not believe that God is the cause of suffering, torture, pain, and death -- either by direct action or by making other humans do those things to him or to each other.

I really had to think about this one. I think we agree that God does not cause "evil", but is all "suffering, torture, pain, and death" really evil? (Maybe leave out torture :) Let's take the easiest example I can think of. Given your above statement, how do you explain Job? Yes, it was satan who did the actual dirty work, but not only was this with God's "blessing", but it was at God's suggestion!

Another thing I considered is that God does correct those He loves. I can attest that this sometimes involves things that were "painful" to me. Of course it wasn't "evil", it was for my own good, and I thanked Him for it. That is, I thanked Him LATER for it. :)

Finally, there is the consideration of whether God causes our physical deaths. About the deceased, we've all heard it said that "God called him home". Not only that, but there are countless examples in the OT where God did actually cause the deaths of many. How about the flood? :)