I don't see it as contradictory for my side to say that all sin leads to spiritual death.
The argument was that you claimed that ALL sin leads to spiritual death. Certainly, murder leads to spiritual death. ALL sin POTENTIALLY leads to death in that a person can make a habit out of sinning, gradually losing any contrition or desire to make amends. It is a common argument of the saints to say that minor, venial sins gone unchecked can lead to mortal, deadly sins. But 1 John clearly tells us that ALL sins do not kill the soul:
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. 1 John 5:16
I don't see either in the Old Testament or the New Testament where God expects a man to be absolutely perfect and sinless to be considered righteous in God's eyes. Many men and women of the Bible were called "righteous", but all had their charecter faults, and most turned from God at least in a temporary moment in the telling of their stories. Abraham lied. David committed adultery and murder. Zechariah doubted God. Joseph had considered putting Mary away. While sin hurts our relationship with God, it does not kill the soul. We are not separated from God as a result of every sin. I believe the concept that you mention is a Protestant line of thought, not a Biblical one.
Sin is THE THING that eternally separates us from God. That's the bad part. The good part is that, for His elect, Christ paid the penalty for all those sins out of justice and love.
Ah, another Protestant error. Christ died for ALL men, not just the elect. I believe this forgets that God loves all men unconditionally. Here is where we can easily misunderstand each other. Catholics believe that there is "objective redemption", which is Christ's one sacrifice for all men that opened the gates of heaven potentially to all men - "God desires all men be saved". However, we also believe in "subjective redemption", which is how the individual is saved. How do we apply Christ's work to our individual self? It is apparent that not all men choose to use Christ's gifts and blessings won by Him. God offers us freedom. However, some CHOOSE not to see God's ways as "freedom". Some people choose to follow their own will, calling THAT freedom. God calls us to repent and believe the Gospel, the Good News - that God has provided objective redemption to all men. The Call is not heeded by all men, though, is it...
John never says we can never know until after we die, he speaks in the present tense.
Good call. Not the future tense! We can "know" TODAY!!! Thus, we can't call ourselves ABSOLUTELY the elect, since we can't see into the future. Sin exists. Even for those who think they are of the elect, those who are walking in Christ TODAY. Isn't it clear that men must persevere in Christ? The future is unclear to US.
Not walking in faith, on a permanent basis, is STRONG evidence that the original profession of faith was not true.
You are basing your salvation on an event of the past that you have NO control over anymore. Your salvation is not dependent on what you proclaimed 10 years ago, but whether you are walking in Christ today! I don't see the reason for "wondering" whether your proclamation was "true" 10 years ago. What does that have to do with today? By your fruit, you shall be known - TODAY. But if you fail to yield fruit "today", then you are to be rooted up and tossed into the fire... The Divine Gardener will do what is necessary for us to bear fruit - IF we accept His pruning (sufferings and testings) and His watering (graces). Does the "yield of a tree" this year depend on how the seed "proclaimed" its faith 10 years ago?
We can know if we are saved by how we act "today", not 10 years ago. Also, we cannot presume that we WILL be saved 10 years from now based on what we do today. Past performance does not guarantee future results... All of this, of course, is from our point of view, not God's. We don't know His point of view on our destinies.
Regards
Yes, and it does. Any sin makes us unfit for heaven. For the wages of sin is death.
It is a common argument of the saints to say that minor, venial sins gone unchecked can lead to mortal, deadly sins. But 1 John clearly tells us that ALL sins do not kill the soul:
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. 1 John 5:16
And my argument was that this verse does not say that at all. Thus, my examples of the difference between physical death and spiritual death. From what I have learned, venial sins do not need to be confessed, and therefore may very well go unforgiven. So, under your view, it appears that God lets sinners into heaven who have not been cleansed, that is, the unrighteous.
I don't see either in the Old Testament or the New Testament where God expects a man to be absolutely perfect and sinless to be considered righteous in God's eyes.
I don't either. How is this related to our discussion? :)
Catholics believe that there is "objective redemption", which is Christ's one sacrifice for all men that opened the gates of heaven potentially to all men - "God desires all men be saved".
Therefore, God does not get what He wants, and is a weak God.
[continuing:] However, we also believe in "subjective redemption", which is how the individual is saved.
Is this the part where we use nothing of ourselves apart from God in salvation? :) I don't understand the distinction if "everything" comes from God, as you said before.
God offers us freedom. However, some CHOOSE not to see God's ways as "freedom". Some people choose to follow their own will, calling THAT freedom.
And yet in the same breath you all will say that God loves these people. Impossible. Could anyone make a fully informed choice to choose Hell over Heaven? Does God have the power to fully inform everyone (grace)? God loves these people, but chooses, intentionally, not to grace them with full information? How do you explain this?
Isn't it clear that men must persevere in Christ? The future is unclear to US.
Yes, we must persevere, and yes we do not know the details of the future. Our difference is that our side believes that God plainly says that the elect necessarily will persevere, although the elect can't know exactly how that will unfold.
You are basing your salvation on an event of the past that you have NO control over anymore. Your salvation is not dependent on what you proclaimed 10 years ago, but whether you are walking in Christ today! ... Does the "yield of a tree" this year depend on how the seed "proclaimed" its faith 10 years ago?
If the proclaimer is of the elect, then 'Yes'. We believe that we cannot produce good fruit in God's eyes until we are saved, so a member of the elect must be saved first.
Also, we cannot presume that we WILL be saved 10 years from now based on what we do today. Past performance does not guarantee future results...
I don't base any part of my salvation on anything I have done, am doing now, or ever will do. Therefore, "performance" is irrelevant to my idea of salvation.