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To: kosta50

"...she would have been another pre-Fall Eve and therefore immortal."

But we know she wasn't merely another pre-Fall Eve; she was the Second or New Eve as Christ was the Second or New Adam.

Of course, if some Catholics are right, and she never died, then that would fit into the theory you are advancing.

Perhaps we have been looking at this entirely the wrong way. Here is what +John Cassian says in Book II Chapter II of his "Seven Books on the Incarnation of the Lord, Against Nestorius"

"Hear then what the archangel Gabriel announces to the Virgin Mary. “The Holy Ghost,” he says, “shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” Do you see how, when he is going to point out the nativity of God, he first speaks of a work of Divinity. For “the Holy Ghost,” he says, “shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee.” Admirably did the angel speak, and explain the majesty of the Divine work by the Divine character of his words. For the Holy Ghost sanctified the Virgin’s womb, and breathed into it by the power of His Divinity, and thus imparted and communicated Himself to human nature; and made His own what was before foreign to Him, taking it to Himself by His own power and majesty. And lest the weakness of human nature should not be able to bear the entrance of Divinity the power of the Most High strengthened the ever to be honoured Virgin, so that it supported her bodily weakness by embracing it with overshadowing protection, and human weakness was not insufficient for the consummation of the ineffable mystery of the holy conception, since it was supported by the Divine overshadowing. “Therefore,” he says, “the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee.”"

So, while Panagia had through an abundance of grace maintained a sinful existence up to the point of the Annunciation, nevertheless she had not attained a god-like theosis, otherwise there would have been no need for the action of the Holy Spirit in strengthening her and sanctifying her womb. I would further suggest that as a human living before the completion of the purpose of the Incarnation, she could not have attained theosis borne Christ without the special intervention of the Holy Spirit.


2,919 posted on 02/22/2006 5:10:48 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

"So, while Panagia had through an abundance of grace maintained a sinful existence up to the point of the Annunciation..."

I assume you mean *sinless.*

"...nevertheless she had not attained a god-like theosis, otherwise there would have been no need for the action of the Holy Spirit in strengthening her and sanctifying her womb."

I'm not sure I completely agree with this. Theosis does not at all mean that a person would be capable of receiving God into one's body. And theosis is not an all or nothing proposition -- there are degrees. Otherwise, heaven will be a very boring place if we won't keep going "from glory to glory." It seems to me that as Metr. Philotheos Vlachos says, based on his reading of St. Gregory Palamas, the Theotokos had achieved theosis at the time of the Entrance -- which isn't at all the same thing as to say that she had arrived at her final and highest spiritual state that she would reach on earth.

"I would further suggest that as a human living before the completion of the purpose of the Incarnation, she could not have attained theosis borne Christ without the special intervention of the Holy Spirit."

Are you meaning to say that the Prophets of the Old Testament did not achieve theosis? My understanding is that they did indeed do so, but that it was a transient state for them. They are called the "God-seers" in the writings of the Church.

What was unique about the Theotokos was the degree and the prolonged nature of her theosis. Christ's Resurrection conquered death and the grave, but it wasn't the thing that opened the door to theosis for the first time for the human race, as I understand it.

Perhaps I'm not understanding your point well.


2,922 posted on 02/22/2006 5:28:21 PM PST by Agrarian
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To: Kolokotronis
Of course, if some Catholics are right, and she never died, then that would fit into the theory you are advancing

I am not advancing a theory, Kolo; just asking questions.

My question is directed at Theotokos' state after the overwshadowing. We agree that she was santified and therefore blameless, all of her sins and even the sin of Adam being wiped off in order that "the holy thing" (what a strange choice of words from +John Cassian!) would be able toi use her pristine flesh to shape His own.

After that moment onward, she was as pristine as Eve, yet she retained mortality that we inherit from Adam. Which leaves us only with two possibilities: she was not cleansed of the mortality we all inherit, and therefore Jesus inherited the same mortal flesh, which we reject -- or she was made pristine, and her mortality was wiped off, in which case she would become mortal only if she actually committed sin thereafter.

2,927 posted on 02/22/2006 7:16:43 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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