Even if we "know", faith is never worthless because (relative) continued faith, meaning there can be temporary breaks, is required to finish the race. I agree to that. As for "hope", it doesn't just mean something wished for. Hope also means "To look forward to with confidence or expectation. ... See syns at expect." (American Heritage College Dictionary, third ed.)
FK: "If the falling away proves permanent I would absolutely agree with you that the person was never of the elect."
Which does a lot of damage to your idea of salvation "now" vs. my idea. Again, a person whose falling away is "permanent" did not think he would do that 5 years ago, do you? Thus the danger of presumption.
I'm not sure I see the damage. I never claimed that everyone who claimed to be of the elect actually was. We both know that cannot be true. As I think I said earlier, I think that these people are in a worse condition than those who have no knowledge at all. But I can't speak for anyone else, and do not try to.
I can only speak for myself. I can speak about my faith and, based on God's promises in scripture, I can speak about my hope (expectation). If it turns out that the truth really is that the Bible does not mean anything like it says, then I might very well be lost. But I don't worry about that because if that IS true, then I have been worshiping a false God all along anyway, and deserve my fate. So, I choose to live in confidence. :)
We believe, however, that God expects us to use the gifts He has given us. Thus, we are secondary movers - God enables us to do things, such as give birth to children and bring people to God for the purpose of salvation.
I think I am still unsure what you mean by "secondary movers". I agree that God expects us to use the gifts He has given us. I give the gift of gasoline to a car and it starts. Then, I drive it away, helping it to fulfill its purpose. Is the car a secondary mover? I DON'T think this is what you mean. Neither do I, because God's love for us is nothing like that for an inanimate object.
In terms understandable to us, I see His love as being most like that of a parent to a child, who doesn't know what is good for him. I see it is NOT being between a parent and a child who is mature enough to make right decisions on his own.
Why would God jealously not allow us to participate in His work? Is He that insecure? Of course not. We know He is the cause of all, both natural and supernatural. Our participation doesn't take anything away from God! HE MADE US!
I don't think God is on some kind of ego trip. :) Yes, He let's us participate, that is clear. If you say that He is the cause of all things that are good, then we agree. However, my spider-sense is still tingling because, on the surface, this doesn't match up with the free-will doctrine. To me, "free will" on this thread has meant:
"Give man credit on his own accord for making the wise decision to cooperate with God. Sure, God gave us the ability and steered us in the right direction, but ultimately, it was the person who made the free-will decision, apart from God. Some choose unwisely on their own accord and some choose wisely on their own accord. God is fine with whichever choice because He respects us and our independent decisions." At least, this is how it seems to me.
There are many Christians who will say "Lord, Lord" and Jesus will respond - "I never knew you". That is a scary thought for those who think they are "saved" already...
Well, it's only scary if they turn out to be wrong. :) As we mature through sanctification, we grow stronger in our confidence that we're right. I guess a part of what I am saying is also that, at least in my own case, the more I have learned, the more I have wanted to still learn more! The more I learn, the LESS I want to rest on my laurels. I don't know if that makes me a freak or what. :) My HOPE is that it only makes me "normal".
We believe that EVERYTHING comes from God. I don't remember anyone saying that love is self-generated. It is from God just as much as faith is from God.
That is, EXCEPT for your free will choices, right? Those are made on your own, aren't they? You can't say that a free will choice against God comes from God, if God really loves us, right? This is our huge difference on this.
Thus, our cooperation is seen at the same time as His decision to elect us. In this mystery, then, I see God calling us and we respond simultaneously (in His POV).
I'm not sure I have my hands fully around this one yet. :) OK, from GOD'S POV, He elects us simultaneously with our free will decision to choose Him? I "thought" (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you have also said that God always gets what He wants. So, if the fix isn't in (which I say it is), then how do you account for the fact that God elected only the exact people who simultaneously choose Him?
I don't think you can say that God waited to see who would accept Him first and then elected them, because that would subtract from His sovereignty. You also can't say that God chose His elect first and ensured that they would accept, because that is my argument. How do you see it?
We [Catholics] view salvation from our point of view - thus, we can't know for certain if we will inherit heaven in the end. You appear to view salvation from God's point of view - the elect - who can never lose their salvation.
NOW, I think you really may be on to something with this! I'll keep thinking about it, but that sounds pretty good to me.
Where I see the problem with your POV is that you assume you are of the elect because you have done the Sinner's prayer. I think we agree that it is more than that.
I do agree that it is more than that. Since my sanctification has reached a certain level, I now know enough to rely on what God promises. On His promises, so far God is batting a thousand! I don't expect Him to start blowing it any time soon. That means I won't either. :)
Starting to sound more Catholic! No, faith is never worthless while we are here on earth, because we don't "see" the goal. Faith will not be needed when we get to heaven, as we will already see the Lord.
I never claimed that everyone who claimed to be of the elect actually was. We both know that cannot be true.
Applied to oneself, why isn't this true? How does a person "KNOW" he is of the elect when he cannot see God's view? Apparently, you believe that we cannot know absolutely that we are saved - we agree. However, we should have "confidence" and "hope" that WE are following Christ. I do not believe, however, that this makes us of the Elect. My entire point is that a person will not know HE is of the Elect until he stands before God on judgment day. However, we CAN have a pretty good idea, a hopeful confidence. I believe we must not be presumptuous, that's all.
I think I am still unsure what you mean by "secondary movers".
God has given us the ability to "do" things strictly by our God-given abilities. Thus, we are not puppets in which God is required to pull strings for us to do ANYTHING. We CAN choose evil. God doesn't cause us to choose evil. We are a secondary cause especially in this sense. In choosing good, God is more involved and we are said to cooperate with the gifts of grace that He has given us.
On free will: "Give man credit on his own accord for making the wise decision to cooperate with God. Sure, God gave us the ability and steered us in the right direction, but ultimately, it was the person who made the free-will decision, apart from God."
This sounds like a Calvinist definition of free will. It is incorrect. Free will is NOT making a decision APART from God. It is making the correct decision with God's help. Free will is choosing one or the other, but this doesn't require that God is not part of the decision making process. The above definition is Pelagianism, a teaching declared a heresy some 1500 years ago.
"...God is fine with whichever choice because He respects us and our independent decisions."
Again, a false definition. It makes God unconcerned with our choices. How can anyone get this sort of idea of God from the Scriptures? God PINES for us. He greatly desires that we abide in Him and He in us. He most certainly DOES care for our choices. But out of love, He gives us what we desire - to be with Him or not. As I have posted before, God punishes people by turning away from them - allowing them to continue in their sins, giving them over to self-destruction. Will they cry out to God? Perhaps. But perhaps they will enjoy being without God.
I guess a part of what I am saying is also that, at least in my own case, the more I have learned, the more I have wanted to still learn more!
I am here if you want to learn more! Naturally, as a Catholic, we believe we have the fullness of the faith - but this does not preclude other Christians from having some of it. But as a person desires to learn more about God, he can do so more easily and correctly through the Church.
That is, EXCEPT for your free will choices {being from God}, right? Those are made on your own, aren't they? You can't say that a free will choice against God comes from God, if God really loves us, right? This is our huge difference on this.
NO! our free choices are "aided" by God to more often choose Him. We don't make "free choices" without God. We are daily given the little choices to follow Christ. He helps us with graces to more often choose correctly. But God does not overwhelm us with His graces to wipe out our free will. We decide, but it is God's graces that help us make the right decision - see Phil 2:12-13. Note the cooperation and how I AND God am doing something when I make a decision.
I'm not sure I have my hands fully around this one yet. :) OK, from GOD'S POV, He elects us simultaneously with our free will decision to choose Him? I "thought" (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you have also said that God always gets what He wants. So, if the fix isn't in (which I say it is), then how do you account for the fact that God elected only the exact people who simultaneously choose Him?
God operates outside of time. Here is a picture to help. Imagine a huge mountain. People are lined up around this mountain. Each person represents a year of time. WE view time from a the foot of the mountain. We can see a limited view of "years". We face only towards the "past" years - we can't see the future years. God, on the other hand, has a "bird's eye view" of ALL the people around the mountain. Thus, He can see ALL "years" in one view. That is how God sees things. Thus, He sees creation, the incarnation, the Crucifixion, the Protestant Reformation, you in your mother's womb, me returning to God, and John Doe dying 5 years from now - all as one view. Thus, we can say that He sees our choices simultaneously with His election of us. God does not operate on a linear time scale, where on day one, He chooses all of the elect, day 2, He creates the world, day 3, etc...It is all one NOW for Him. God doesn't "wait". That is an anthropomorphic idea. God is outside of time - time is a measurement of change. Thus, there is no "waiting".
On His promises, so far God is batting a thousand! I don't expect Him to start blowing it any time soon. That means I won't either. :)
OOPS! You almost had it! "That means I won't either". That is presuming that one is of the elect without special knowledge. As we have discussed, one cannot know this - look back to when you were "saved" - YOU thought you were of the elect. Later information gave you reason to doubt that. Who is to say that future information will not cause some other such activity? Certainly, it is less likely. But he who thinks he stands firm, beware lest he falls - 1 Cor 10:12
Regards