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To: Forest Keeper

"So, I'll just ask, what is the deal with Jesus going down into Hades, and is Hades the same as Hell?"

Eastern Christianity speculates on three "places" for souls, the abode of the dead (Hades) Heaven which is a sort of noetic union with the energies but not the substance of God and Hell, which will be the place of eternal torment after the Final Judgment.

"Why does predestination imply a divine farce? I read your explanation, but it doesn't make sense to me. On temporal physics I think it was Kosta who gave us the image of God standing on a mountain top, looking down and around the mountain, and seeing all time occur simultaneously. I have no problem with this."

FK, you're confusing foreknowledge with predestination. If everything was "predestined" and we mortals have absolutely nothing to do with our own theosis, then indeed the Incarnation was just an unnecssary carnival show.

"I would agree that the sacrifice that Jesus made was sufficient to save all of mankind, but it was only efficacious to the elect."

Aside from Calvin and perhaps some remark by +Augustine, where does this idea come from?


2,764 posted on 02/17/2006 4:05:50 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper
I was not the one to use the analogy of God standing on a mountain and seeing all ages at once. I used the analogy of the time-span in the physical world being located between God's legs -- from the beginning until the end of times. God can see the past, present and future all at once looking at His feet (I hope everyone here understands that this is anthropomorphism and that of really doesn't have feet!)

What He "sees" is each and every human being that was, is and will be, and what each will decide and where each will end up.

Some will be saved because they will, for one reason or another, attain the likeness of Christ, while others won't. Those who are saved will most likely ask God for help and cooperate with God's will to varying degrees to which we are fallible. Our decisions affect only our salvation; they do not affect God's plan. Those who reject God will perish because they refuse God -- for whatever reason! Those who turn to God will ask Him for mercy and forgiveness and He will be merciful and forgiving to them.

2,776 posted on 02/17/2006 8:51:32 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Kolokotronis
FK: ""I would agree that the sacrifice that Jesus made was sufficient to save all of mankind, but it was only efficacious to the elect."

Aside from Calvin and perhaps some remark by +Augustine, where does this idea come from?

As far as I can tell, it is a reconciliation of other ideas.

2 Cor. 5:14-15 : 14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

On the surface, this would seem to present a problem. However, no one is going to argue that all are saved. So, I'm guessing that to reconcile verses like these with the fact that only the elect are saved, we say that what Christ did was sufficient for all to have been saved, had God chosen all. Since God only saves the elect, the cross is only effectual for the elect.

2,840 posted on 02/20/2006 12:33:26 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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