FK, I still believe that you have a chronological issue with Apostolic Tradition. There wasn't the need to filter the Apostles' teachings through the Scripture at the time. There wasn't a confusion - people knew that oral and written teachings from the Apostles were equally valid. It is only during the Reformation that we really see people suddenly questioning the orally given teachings. However, it is important to realize that the Church DID write down the Apostles teachings that didn't make the Scriptures explicitly - they just are not considered inspired works because they were not actually written by Apostles.
I hear what you are saying. We just disagree that a non-inspired work can be inerrant. You use the argument all the time: "How can you be sure?" You believe that the Church wrote down all non-Biblical Apostolic teachings perfectly because you declare they did. You might even rely on a particularly massaged Bible verse interpreted by the Church to give the Church the only authority to know scripture. You have to admit that is pretty convenient. :) The RCC establishes the authority of the RCC in its exclusivity. It goes back to interpretation of the Bible being forced to conform with the teachings of the Church.
You believe the Bible gives this transferability of divine power to men because otherwise tradition would have to be thrown out. God transfers the job of protecting His children away from Himself and into the hands of a few men. Yes, you say that God guides them, but God does not do the job Himself. When Jesus says His sheep follow His voice, it really means the sheep follow His voice as translated through the Church. We can't hear the voice of Jesus, we only hear the Church. And so on, and so on with a thousand Biblical teachings. Under this view Jesus is not a personal God at all, He is the executive who only speaks to middle management. :)
FK: "I believe the scripture was preserved by God. Nothing circular about that."
I think we need to tackle this problem. You know it is God's book based on internal evidence? So if I wrote "Thus says the Lord your God, I have a new commandment for my people. You shall follow the Book of Mormon with all of your heart - it is my message to the people of America", what would you say? How would you know that this is not from God? As you said, "what does timing have to do with God's plan"?
I'm no Bible scholar, but I have read every word, as doubtless you have. So, I would say that if you can come up with a writing that even approaches the Bible in completeness, wisdom, consistency, love, doctrine, historical accuracy, (add ten more adjectives that are the Bible), then maybe I would look into Mormonism. But, that's what it would take. :) Based only the merit of the book by itself, without anyone else vouching for it, do you believe there is an equal to the Bible on earth? Without the Church saying the Bible is OK, would you equate it with the Koran or the LDS bible?
Both are infallible and both have been written eventually. The only real difference is that it takes more time to cull the contents of Apostolic Tradition. Neither can be "modified", although our understanding of EITHER can vary over time. Even Protestants have different understandings regarding Scripture passages in time - such as those on slavery.
We just disagree that a non-inspired work can be inerrant. You use the argument all the time
Are you saying the teachings of the Apostles were not inspired by God?
We just disagree that a non-inspired work can be inerrant
I think the Apostles taught that all of their teachings were from God - thus, inspired by Him. I don't understand how you can toss out their teachings based on whether THEIR hand actually wrote something or not. Did Moses write about HIS own death? But you still see Deuteronomy as inspired by God?
When Jesus says His sheep follow His voice, it really means the sheep follow His voice as translated through the Church. We can't hear the voice of Jesus, we only hear the Church. And so on, and so on with a thousand Biblical teachings. Under this view Jesus is not a personal God at all, He is the executive who only speaks to middle management. :)
God speaks to the entire Church. We believe in the "sense of the faithful", the Spirit working within each individual to sense what God is leading the Church to believe. However, we believe it takes the Church bishops, the successors of the Apostles, to interpret that "sense". There are many different "voices" but only one truth. Thus, if we are one Body, we would presume there be one Mind of the Church. It is found within the "sense of the faithful", but how do you figure out which "voice" is correct? The Church guides the bishops to interpret that voice, so that when future heretics teach something, the BISHOPS can read this "sense" and say "we don't believe that, nor does the Church". Each individual bishop is a representative of his particular local church, so to speak. He "reads" that local "voice" and determines what the faithful think on a subject.
This is similar to the gift of tongues and the gift of discernment in individuals. What good is tongues if no one can understand them? Thus, Paul says that the gift of discernment is more important for the entire Church. The gift is given primarily to the Bishops.
I'm no Bible scholar, but I have read every word, as doubtless you have. So, I would say that if you can come up with a writing that even approaches the Bible in completeness, wisdom, consistency, love, doctrine, historical accuracy, (add ten more adjectives that are the Bible), then maybe I would look into Mormonism
So I couldn't write an Esther, a Philemon? I don't think it would be too difficult to write something that agreed with what was written before, one that shows love and wisdom. Internally, you couldn't prove that it wasn't Scripture. The ONLY way you can prove that something is not Scripture is if an outside means is used. Historical evidence. Outside witnesses to it.
A further question. What is to prevent someone from claiming to write something ELSE that is "Scripture" and claim it is from God? The Scripture says nowhere that the canon is closed! That is Apostolic Tradition! When if I wrote something and then claimed it was from God? How would you prove it wrong? When if I claimed to find something written by Peter or John? How would you prove INTERNALLY that it wasn't? Sorry, without external means, you CAN'T know what is or what is NOT the Bible. The same applies to other so-called Scripture. You will use external means to disprove the Koran, or Indian Scripture.
Based only the merit of the book by itself, without anyone else vouching for it, do you believe there is an equal to the Bible on earth?
The Bible is a compilation of letters. Some of them, at first glance, don't appear to belong or are not exactly what you would call "edifying" writings. The Book of Esther never mentions the word "God", unless you read the Catholic version from the Septuagint... And why is Philemon ONLY from God and not Paul just writing a letter?
Read some of Psalm 58: Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD. Let them melt away as waters [which] run continually: [when] he bendeth [his bow to shoot] his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces. As a snail [which] melteth, let [every one of them] pass away: [like] the untimely birth of a woman, [that] they may not see the sun. Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in [his] wrath. The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
It is writings such as that which led MANY people to believe that there were two separate Gods, the Demuirge of the Old Testament and the God of Love of the New Testament. Can you honestly tell me that Psalms 58 and the Gospel of Luke is written by the same God - WITHOUT EXTERNAL WITNESS??? No linguistic person would see any similarities between the teachings of Psalm 58 and the Gospel of Luke. It is ONLY the witness of the Church that tells us that BOTH are from the SAME GOD.
Regards