You make God out to be a meglomaniac who can't stand it if someone is exalted (doesn't Scriptures say that the lowly will be exalted?). Really, who takes away from the Creator by complementing the creation? When I build a chair, and someone says, "that's a nice chair", do I get upset, demanding that I get all of the credit, or is it understood that I am being praised THROUGH the chair? It is the same thing with humans. God is praised and glorified through others who trust in Him, despite the lacking of evidence, such as Job. God is praised by the lowly person who perseveres, trusting in God. Really, you have a misplaced idea of God's sovereignty. You seem to believe that because we PARTICIPATE, that means that God does 98% and we do 2% on our own! Hardly! I and God do "x" together. There is no division of tasks. I do nothing good alone. Thus, it is my work - and God is the driving force behind it. With God, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.
Therefore, I was suggesting that your approach to seekers would have to be to teach the Church's teachings first, and the Bible would have to wait until later.
I teach "seekers" using the Scripture to show that the Church's teachings are there. Coupled with the Apostolic Tradition, a seeker is given a window into what the early Christians believed on something. We are part of the Body, not only in space, but in time. There is no reason to "wait until later" for the Bible! When I give a class, that is the first thing we do (after an opening prayer and review of last week's topic). We read several passages that pertain to the subject at hand, preferably something from both Testaments. We discuss it. Then, I show them what the Church teaches on these and parallel passages and develop the Church's dogmatic teaching. It is not necessary to dispense with the Bible to teach the Church's dogma! It's all there.
I suppose we will always disagree on whether the Spirit living within me will ever condescend to give me the time of day. :)
I had thought that common sense - having thousands of different denominations that all equally claim to be led by the Spirit - would be enough for you to determine that the Spirit does not lead on the dogmatic front to individuals.
I think I was talking about what are apparent contradictions by any plain reading of the text of scripture, such as a sinless Mary ("all" doesn't mean "all"), Mary as a perpetual virgin thus Jesus had no siblings, and priests forgiving sin. I know we have already discussed all of these. Here you say that tradition must agree with scripture, therefore they are equal in authority. (Maybe I did not earlier put together that the legs of the stool were of equal strength. :)
EVERYONE reads a book through a particular lense, and that includes the Bible. You must be aware by now that the Christians did not first have Scriptures and THEN determine what the Traditions they had learned meant to them. It was the other way around! The oral teachings and practice of the communities determined HOW to read Scritpure when Scripture was not so clear - or even when it seemed so to many people. For example...Eucharist - Real Presence. Seems pretty clear what is said. Seems pretty clear what the early Church thought - for 1500 years. Seems pretty clear that a book must be properly read to understand the author's intent. I find it difficult to ignore the unanimous teachings of 2000 years of Christians who preceded me.
So, if they must agree then the interpretation of the Bible must be made to agree with the writings of the Fathers. This eliminates any sense of the Bible being a readable book outside of the contortions necessary to match the Fathers.
WHO wrote the Scriptures? You seem to have a problem remembering that the Apostles wrote it AFTER they had been teaching people for YEARS! Of course the Bible is to be read through these conditions.
If you believe that "anyone" could come up with a book like the Bible, then I don't know what to say. I don't believe anyone could.
Really? A lot of people are absolutely convinced that the Koran is the Word of God. A lot of people believe that the Book of Mormons is from God. I could write a letter, sprinkle some "thus says the Lord" with some general prophesies (some of which are bound to come true), and I'd have a so-called inspired book from God! However, WE know that couldn't be the case BECAUSE a writing cannot PROVE ITSELF. Just because a writing says "The history of Alexander the Great" doesn't mean it is. And just because a book says "The Bible" on the front cover doesn't mean the entire book is from God. Only external proofs - which you mention, for example, when you talk about the bones of Mohemmed, can PROVE decisively one way or the other!!! You are using external proves to disregard other books as NOT being from God, but you don't seem to realize it!
The tomb of the author of the Bible is empty.
Jesus didn't write the Bible! See what I mean? You are drilled so heavily on this stuff that you can't identify for yourself that the Bible takes outside verification to prove its claim! Anyone can write a book with "thus says the Lord". Only people on the ground can determine the truth of it or not.
Besides, I obviously did come to the conclusion that the Bible is real without any help or knowledge of the Fathers or any Catholic tradition. Was I just lucky? :)
No, you fail to realize that you DID come to that conclusion BASED on the CATHOLIC TRADITION. You think the Protestants figured out for themselves that the Scriptures were from God? The NT was identified as Scriptures one thousand years before Luther came on the scene. The reason why you know the Bible is from God is because the Catholic Church says it is and the Protestants unwittingly follow in step to that claim, not realizing the irony that they rely on the Church's determination of authority, while casting aside its authority to teach that very same book! Go figure.
Regards
A megalomaniac is one who is delusional with his self-perceived omnipotence. I assure you I do not accuse God of that! :) "Exalted" is a tricky word and can have different meanings in different contexts.
Clearly, Jesus does recognize and praise several demonstrations of faith in the Gospels. I know that. My only point is to remember that it is God who made it all happen.
Really, who takes away from the Creator by complementing the creation? When I build a chair, and someone says, "that's a nice chair", do I get upset, demanding that I get all of the credit, or is it understood that I am being praised THROUGH the chair? It is the same thing with humans.
NO! It is not the same thing at all with humans. :) For your analogy to carry, it would have to be another chair praising the first chair. This is because you are the creator of the chair, and the person praising it would be another human, an equal. God has no equal to praise His work.
There is nothing wrong with the second chair complimenting the creator (you) on your work, but it should appreciate that you also created it, and know that all the credit for both chairs goes to you. The second chair should know that the first chair did nothing toward its creation or its beauty.
Really, you have a misplaced idea of God's sovereignty. You seem to believe that because we PARTICIPATE, that means that God does 98% and we do 2% on our own! Hardly!
When you say "Hardly!", I couldn't agree more. You short-changed God by 2%. :)
I had thought that common sense - having thousands of different denominations that all equally claim to be led by the Spirit - would be enough for you to determine that the Spirit does not lead on the dogmatic front to individuals.
Oh, come on! Are you really one of those who says there are "thousands" of different Protestant denominations? That's bogus. The biased only count it that way because of our autonomy. So if my church performs the Lord's Supper once per month, and the next SB church down the street does it twice per month, then it's considered two totally different faiths. That's ridiculous. While I do admit there are sometimes important variations in theology, the basic core beliefs cannot possibly be split up as you suggest. I maintain that the Holy Spirit does lead individuals.
The oral teachings and practice of the communities determined HOW to read Scripture when Scripture was not so clear - or even when it seemed so to many people.
This is a main protest I have. You are stating openly what I have been gathering. Tradition trumps scripture! You cannot take scripture on its face. You must filter it through the Church's lens to arrive at an interpretation that matches tradition. It is the scriptural meaning that changes, not the tradition. That is the only way HOW to read scripture.
WHO wrote the Scriptures? You seem to have a problem remembering that the Apostles wrote it AFTER they had been teaching people for YEARS! Of course the Bible is to be read through these conditions.
No, I remember that, I just don't trust people playing the telephone game with doctrine that is not in the Bible. If you're right, then it goes back to my assertion that God was the most cryptic author in the history of literature. I don't know why He would speak in such riddles to His own beloved, except that a tiny few men might explain it to us. Again, by your arguments, the Bible wasn't written for us at all.
FK: "If you believe that "anyone" could come up with a book like the Bible, then I don't know what to say. I don't believe anyone could."
Really? A lot of people are absolutely convinced that the Koran is the Word of God. A lot of people believe that the Book of Mormons is from God. I could write a letter, sprinkle some "thus says the Lord" with some general prophesies (some of which are bound to come true), and I'd have a so-called inspired book from God!
But you evaded my question. Is the Koran or the LDS bible "like" the Holy Bible? We both know that billions have been fooled with false teaching. God told us it would be so. Honestly now, how many DEVOUT Muslims and Mormons do you expect to see in Heaven? Scripture tells you the answer plainly. My answer would be "extremely few".
I laugh when you repeat that you "could write a letter...". From my understanding, that is exactly what L. Ron Hubbard did! And today millions are fooled, and sadly, they are also lost. I believe that it is only God's grace that showed us both that all of these other teachings were false. Without it, one might seem as good as another. God gave us the grace to know.
Jesus didn't write the Bible! See what I mean? You are drilled so heavily on this stuff that you can't identify for yourself that the Bible takes outside verification to prove its claim! Anyone can write a book with "thus says the Lord". Only people on the ground can determine the truth of it or not.
The Word didn't author the word? That seems odd. The Bible does have plenty of outside verification to authenticate it, but none of it is needed. I don't agree that people need to determine the truth of the Bible. Truth is truth. People need to discover the truth that is already there. The difference is that with "determine" there is a human component. The truth of the Bible does not depend on man accepting it.
The reason why you know the Bible is from God is because the Catholic Church says it is and the Protestants unwittingly follow in step to that claim, not realizing the irony that they rely on the Church's determination of authority, while casting aside its authority to teach that very same book! Go figure.
That can't be right, because I still believe the Bible is self-authenticating. I don't begrudge that the Catholic Church said the Bible was God's word first, I'm glad she did! But, it really is true that when I accepted it, I didn't know anything about Church history or that Catholics put it together, or any of it. I was taught that the Bible was God's inerrant word, and I had read enough chapters, and seen the wisdom and internal consistency, and so I believed. We believe the Bible authenticates itself apart from the RCC, so there is no irony.