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To: annalex
Let us look at verses 18-19 [in Rom. 5]:

18 Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life. 19 For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners; so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just.

Verse 18 says, all condemned and all justified. Verse 19 says, many are sinners, and many are justified. Unless "all" is used in the sense of "many" in Verse 18, St. Paul contradicts himself in these two verses. But verse 18 picks up from verse 12. I do not see how verse 12 should be read as "absolutely all", when verse 18 must be read as "many".

That's a nice try, but I don't think it gets you all the way home. :) The way I see it is that "many" is used in the sense of "many others", as in all others following Adam. Of course, all are not justified, but from our point of view, all have a chance to be justified. From our POV, every human is in the mission field. God is the only who knows the names of the chosen and the passed over. So it is "many" that is really like "all" rather than the other way around.

If you say that all really means "many" are you arguing that "many" really means billions and billions and billions EXCEPT MARY? Or, do you believe that others were also sinless? Are you rejecting original sin? Paul obviously knew who Mary was. All he would have to do is give her a pass in one verse, one time in all his writings and then I'd be with you. We would know to properly interpret all of his other writings because the Bible must be consistent. Yet he does not.

In fact, I thought this wasn't even an infallible declaration until 150 years ago. That tells me there must have been some disagreement about, even among Catholics, until that time.

Is Paul saying in verse 12 that since all, including Mary, die, then all, including Mary and John the Baptist, sin? Verse 14 explains that not all sinned in a similar way. Paul makes clear that death came from one man, Adam. The implication is that the sin of Adam alone is sufficient to cause death of all. It is not logically necessary for all to sin in order for all to die.

I think the death Paul spoke of was spiritual death, but yes, I think he was saying that everyone after Adam, including Mary and John the Baptist had sinned and were therefore unworthy of heaven without Christ.

I see the distinction Paul is making in verse 14 as meaning that the theater of sin is greater than breaking the Commandments, because people sinned before there were any Commandments. Adam received a specific commandment from God so it is the same thing. I also see part of this idea being that man cannot be saved by simply following the Commandments. Jesus was clear on this.

I agree that the sin of Adam is sufficient to cause all of our spiritual deaths (original sin). Being created with the sin nature is enough to doom us, we will sin if it is physically possible. We would both agree that aborted babies, etc. are given a special dispensation by God, even though they may not have "sinned" in any way that we understand it.

2,532 posted on 02/12/2006 12:02:45 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
You certainly can interpret Romans 5 in the way you prefer to interpret it, that is, see that "many" is used in the sense of "all", and that sin of everyone is the cause of death of everyone, and not merely sin of Adam. I think you would run into some difficulties here and there, but perhaps you would be able to overcome all of them. But this is not what we are about. You set out to show me how the Gospel contradicts the immaculate conception, and I showed you in 2451 and the post that had lead to it, that it does not. If your point was that the Gospel can be explained also without the doctrine of Immaculate Conception, then I have no objection; it can be explained that way as well.
2,573 posted on 02/12/2006 9:08:08 PM PST by annalex
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