[HarleyD]

You have obviously never read Orthodox fathers of his calibre....History certifies with all of the Church Fathers and theologians of great authority, together with the entirety of Holy Tradition and its incontestable substantiating elements, that the teaching on divine foreknowledge has always existed within the Church.

As a matter of fact I have read SOME (not all) and SOME works (not all). It makes no difference. His statement:

All of this would be made a lie if the number of the chosen were in fact limited.

shows that he bought into the Pelagius lie. Simple logic would state that SOMEONE ELSE must have been saying otherwise for him to make such a statement now hadn't they? There must have been Calvinists church fathers back then although I'm sure they didn't call themselves Calvinists. SOMEONE must have been saying the chosen were limited. So please don't tell me all the Church fathers were in harmony.

I will also add that Elder Cleopa comments are much like the comments I hear here all the time. Predestination is a mystery. God looks down the corridors of time to see how man chooses. The scriptures don't say man choose God. Our Lord Jesus was very clear.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

Joh 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

While Elder Cleopa might have been a very nice gentleman and a wonderful Christian, with all due respect he was wrong. I'm sure he couldn't satisfactorily explain John 15:16.

[kosta50]

There must have been Calvinists church fathers back then although I'm sure they didn't call themselves Calvinists

Oh yes, there were plenty of Calvinsits "back then", and they even called themselves Calvinsits or perhaps Presbyterians, given that Elder Cleopa served God in the communist-enslaved Romania in the second half of the 20th century! Last time I checked, Calvinists were not extinct in Europe at that time.

And you say that you have read some of his works but never bothered to find out a little about the author, such as where and when he lived?

Well, this is what he has to say to your quotes:

"If grace were to work on its own - indifferent to us - it would mean that we would walk to our salvation without our will. In this case if some are lost to perdition they would not be to blame, but rather grace would be responsible since it did not compel them to be saved.

This teaching, as we have said previously, is not a teaching of the Christ's Church but of the Calvinists who have themselves termed it unconditional election or predestination. According to this teaching, God decided from before the ages to save certain men and destroy others.

This He does in accord with His liking, not according to the way man would work but through His grace - grace that He decided to give in order to save some. To a few Grace is given - grace that compels them to work according to His will - while to others grace is withheld. Such is the teaching of the Calvinists." [Elder Cleopa to a "seeker"]