The only thing that is secure is from GOD'S point of view. We don't know God's point of view, as the Scriptures clearly point out. There are numerous verses that talk about falling away from God, of losing salvation: For if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful hope of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (Heb 10:26-27)
Moreover, brothers, I would that ye not ignore how our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea and did all eat the same spiritual food and did all drink the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them; and that Rock was the Christ. But with many of them God was not pleased; therefore, they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things became types of us, that we should not lust after evil things as they lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed and fell [dead]: in one day, twenty-three thousand. Neither let us tempt the Christ, as some of them also tempted and perished by the serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured and perished by the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them as types, and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. Therefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 1 Cor 10:1-12
No, we DO NOT know our "eternal position" with God at any point in our lives - it is only upon our death will we know ultimately our true stance with the Father in heaven. We cannot have absolute assurance. Even Paul did not have such absolute assurance, in the verses immediately following the above: I therefore so run, not as unto an uncertain thing; so I fight, not as one that beats the air; but I keep my body under, and bring [it] into subjection, lest preaching to others, I myself should become reprobate. (1 Cor 9:26-27)
IF you truly believe that the Scripture is the WORD of God, literally, how can you explain away such verses? How can they be reconcilled with OSAS? Christ carries out His work until its completion - sure. But how do you know that YOU are one of His works that He will complete? We rely on the grace of God and His mercy that we are of the sheepfold, but we NEVER presume that we are among the Elect until our judgment.
So, was I still saved when I said my sinner's prayer, even though at that moment I had not done a single good work in God's eyes? YES
I presume when you mean "saved" above, you mean initial justification, not saved for eternal life. We are healed (saved) of our sins. But we are not "saved" for eternal life until we are further sanctified. Otherwise, sanctification has no utilization, as I have made great pains to explain. If we are saved for eternal life with no possibility of losing this salvation, or can add nothing (love) to it, there is NO need for this 'being made holy', since Christ already will cover us.
Here is how I look at it: you are either a member of the elect or you are not. God determines this, we have nothing to do with it. So, if I had died the day after saying the sinner's prayer, then I'm still in because there was no time to fall away and reject God.
That's true. But you sinner's prayer does not make you of the elect, God does. Here we tread the mysterious interaction between God and man.
Now, what if I had died during that time? I would say that if that had happened then I wouldn't have been a member of the elect in the first place
That is an interesting admission. I guess my point still is quite valid: How do you know your sinner's prayer is "effective" in granting you the position of the elect? In what you have said, you really can't know - since we can't see the future (although God does). We cannot KNOW that we will continue to remain in Christ. Thus, the "sinner's prayer" is in of ITSELF not determinitive of one's status with the Lord. Only faith working through love can give us a "confirmation" of our status - presuming we don't die the evening of our "sinner's prayer"/baptism. I think your statement is evidence that one is NOT absolutely assured of salvation.
But fear not, we can have a good moral assurance of our destiny if Christ is abiding within us. He abides within us through the Eucharist, and proven through our faith working with love. We cannot obey the commandments in love unless He abides within us. Thus, we have our CURRENT evidence. Not absolute, but relatively assured. But this says NOTHING of our acts in 2007.
I wrote : I don't see in Scriptures where our judgment upon our death will determine a good or better reward
Mat 5:12 - consider reading the entire context of the Beatitudes. Every single "blessed" grants the reward of eternal heaven. The reward itself is summarized in Mat 5:12 in that we will have heaven. Those who do not do what Christ lays out in the Beatitudes will NOT receive this reward. Thus, the reward is heaven, the punishment is hell. There is nothing about a person "just getting in" because they said the sinner's prayer but didn't do the Beatitudes receiving a lesser reward then those who continue and achieve the contents of the Beatitudes and receive a greater reward. Their is no such contrast betweeen greater or lesser reward, but only ONE reward - God Himself, as explained in various ways by : "theirs is the kingdom of the heavens; for they shall be comforted; for they shall inherit the earth; for they shall obtain mercy", etc... All of these are different ways of saying - "you'll enter heaven". Mat 16:27 While it is possible to interpret that verse to mean what you say, there are others who do not. According to Barnes, he writes about this verse:
"Reward. The word reward means recompense, or do justice to. He will deal with them according to their character. The righteous he will reward in heaven, with glory and happiness. The wicked he will send to hell, as a reward or recompense for their evil works"
Again, the vast majority of the time, the Scripture talks about judgment as either being eternal heaven or eteranl hell. This is clear from the many parables of Christ. Over and over, He tells about those who obey and are rewarded with the Banquet, while those who do not are NOT given lower rewards, but are expelled and "grind their teeth" in eternal darkness.
Examples? Mat 22:2-14, the Wedding Banquet; Luke 14:16-24, the Large Dinner; Mat 25:1-13, the Ten Virgins; Mat 25:14-30, the Talents, and Mat 25:31-45, the Sheep and the Goats
OK, then the first question to ask is: "From God's point of view, does He constantly sit there erasing and adding new names to the Book of Life
No. God sees all as one now. He views Creation, the Incarnation, and my life as one event in the present. Thus, He doesn't need to "erase" anything - He sees me in one view. However, the Scripture speaks as if God erases people's name from the Book of Life because it is written from the point of view of men - within time. Men operate in time. We move into and out of God's graces.
If you believe that the Book of Life is not subject to reprintings, then you can know for sure
We don't have access to reading God's Book of Life. Thus, we can only HOPE we are of the Elect. We don't know, since God's ways are not our ways. Everything about God saving His elect is true. The problem is "are you of the elect"? As our conversation above has stated, we MAY fall away. Thus, if our "sinner's prayer" might not have been effective (since you say we might not have been saved to begin with!), you can't possibly KNOW you are of the elect irrefutably and without possibility of falling.
We CAN fall but we (the elect) WILL NOT fall because of God's promise to us of protection
I hope it is becoming clear that God will protect HIS ELECT, not all who take the sinner's prayer. As you have stated, the sinner's prayer does not equate with salvation in heaven. Only God's Elect are prevented from falling into hell. But we cannot know if we are one of them elect. Even Paul, as I have quoted above, was fearful of being of the reprobate. Paul, for heaven's sake!
The sincerity is what helps ME to KNOW it
I can sincererly believe 2+2=5. That doesn't make it correct. Our sincerity doesn't save us. That puts the onus of salvation on your own good feelings and emotions...
When I said my sinner's prayer I know that I gave everything there was inside me to give at that time
Yet, you fell away (as I did after my Baptism). You yourself admit that an untimely death before your re-conversion would not have saved you. Thus, your emotions and good will of 1995 or whatever have nothing to do with your status with God in 2006 or 2010.
If the TRUTH is that I was still full of baloney then I am toast, but I'm not going to live my life worrying about it.
Work out your salvation in fear and trembling...I don't think a true Christian will ever presume that they are saved and no longer need to worry about their status in God's eyes. It is not something we are anxious about, true. We should have confidence in the Lord's promises. But I have found that as soon as one believes they are "OK" in God's eyes, that is when pride begins to seep into our actions. By maintaining a humble attitude, one where we rely totally on God's mercy and not presuming ourselves to already have run the race, I believe is closer to what God has shown us through Jesus Christ.
Regards
(Many, many verses on assurance of salvation have already been posted on this thread. I'm not sure I can add anything new. :) This particular passage in Hebrews speaks of a defiant sin, with "a high hand". This goes back to Num. 15:30-31, and even further back to Pharaoh in Exodus 14:8. Just like Pharaoh, such a person committing sin like this was never saved in the first place. Consistent with what I have said, God will not allow a truly saved person to "spit in His face" like Pharaoh did.
Therefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 1 Cor 10:1-12
To me, this whole passage boils down to "Don't be like the Jews in the desert. Some of them assumed they were saved and did whatever they wanted. They were wrong." This is consistent with what I have been saying. The person in the worst shape assumes He is saved, but is not truly. Habitual behavior like some of those Jews would be good evidence that they were not saved yet. As you have pointed out, Jesus shows us what a believer looks like.
Even Paul did not have such absolute assurance, in the verses immediately following the above: I therefore so run, not as unto an uncertain thing; so I fight, not as one that beats the air; but I keep my body under, and bring [it] into subjection, lest preaching to others, I myself should become reprobate. (1 Cor 9:26-27)
It does appear that the extended passage is a good refutation of OSAS. That's why I dropped it in favor of PotS. However, it seems our translations are dramatically different here:
1 Cor. 9:26-27 : "26 Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
That's a pretty huge difference. All we can do is stick with our own, I suppose. :)
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I presume when you mean "saved" above, you mean initial justification, not saved for eternal life. We are healed (saved) of our sins. But we are not "saved" for eternal life until we are further sanctified. Otherwise, sanctification has no utilization, as I have made great pains to explain. If we are saved for eternal life with no possibility of losing this salvation, or can add nothing (love) to it, there is NO need for this 'being made holy', since Christ already will cover us.
Well, actually no. We don't have the idea of initial justification. Every time I have used that phrase I have been ceding a point for the purpose of clarifying a different point. I was trying to say, "on your own terms then, what about this other thing?" (Sorry if I was misleading.) I believe salvation is a one-time event WITH future included actions. If the salvation is true then the actions will absolutely, necessarily happen. There is no choice involved, there is no free will involved to do good. God runs everything.
This is the use of sanctification from our POV. We don't know what's going to happen so we don't know how our sanctification is going to take shape, but we do know that it will happen. For us it is still new and does have purpose. Sure, Christ carrying on His work until completion is necessary, but since it's a lock for the truly saved, I see it as being wrapped up for all intents and purposes initially.
But you sinner's prayer does not make you of the elect, God does.
Absolutely right.
[On reward in (for) heaven:] Again, the vast majority of the time, the Scripture talks about judgment as either being eternal heaven or eternal hell.
I agree there are plenty of passages that distinguish only between heaven and hell. I just see some verses as distinguishing between different rewards once heaven is already achieved. It is a fairly debatable interpretation.
FK: "OK, then the first question to ask is: "From God's point of view, does He constantly sit there erasing and adding new names to the Book of Life."
No. God sees all as one now. He views Creation, the Incarnation, and my life as one event in the present. Thus, He doesn't need to "erase" anything -...
OK, good. So, really our only disagreement on this topic is over the verses that describe to which degree men and/or satan can snatch us out of God's hand?
As our conversation above has stated, we MAY fall away. Thus, if our "sinner's prayer" might not have been effective (since you say we might not have been saved to begin with!), you can't possibly KNOW you are of the elect irrefutably and without possibility of falling.
I have acknowledged that some people say the sinner's prayer and it is not efficacious. And, I do not claim to know the future. I do claim, though, to know better now what God's promises are and so I have as much assurance as a human can have.
I have seen the other side. I earlier shared with you a little bit about my own mother. Towards the end of her life as I was witnessing to her, I tried to ask all the "right" questions to ascertain her salvation status to whatever degree I could know it, and to see what her needs were. (I grew up with no religious influence of any kind from either parent.) She related that while she was in high school, she went to church and had "asked Jesus into her heart". But, in the 50 years since high school, her level of sanctification appeared to be near zero.
My cause for concern was that she had, at the time I was witnessing, what I perceived to be an active defiance of God. (The "high hand") She spoke actively against Him, presumably blaming Him for the unhappiness in her life since the divorce 20 years earlier, etc. By what I know now, she was a textbook case. At the time, when I believed in OSAS, I said to myself: "Whew. At least she's in." Now I know better. (Of course I know that I cannot be certain of anything because it isn't up to me. Thank God:)
Anyway, sorry for going on and on, I guess I'm trying to say that given all that, I then compare my own story. It is nothing like that. I am confident that I have been running my race for more than 15 years, and I only want to know God better and better. I have reached a place where I believe I can "rest" that God is stuck with me. :) But, I cannot quit on Him, so the "rest" is not out of complacency. God continues to affect me to want to run the race. I believe that God says He will not withdraw that from me, or allow me to choose against it permanently.
And, during these past years I have been through many trials, not on a Job level or anything, but bad enough, and through God's grace it has never occurred to me to curse God. In those times I need Him the most. :)