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To: Forest Keeper

I think you are misreading Tertullian. His point is that although God foresaw that Adam would sin, he did nothing to stop him, or the serpent, because having given him Free Will, he wouldn't take it back. Man was created in the image and likeness of God. The image of God contains Free Will. Its part of our being. It has nothing to do with being a parent who wants to be a friend so lets the kids run wild. :)

Marcion, by the way, was a major league heretic. A very nasty, very dangerous fellow.

"For, since He had once for all allowed (and, as we have shown, worthily allowed) to man freedom of will and mastery of himself,...

God allows man mastery of himself??? Yikes! Why doesn't this idea scare you to death? :)"

Sort of, but what it means is that God is neither the author of nor responsible for Evil; we are. Theosis and the grace necessary to attain it are free for the taking, but many don't pick up on that. Its sort of like something a wise priest once said to me. If it were announced that he was handing out $1000.00 bills at the liturgy on Sunday, the crowds would fill the church and the streets outside. Instead he offers LIFE through Christ...the church may often be full, but the streets outside aren't.

"Finally, and in an overall sense, while I would agree that man has the freedom to choose evil, I would say it doesn't start until salvation. Before that, we are dead in sin, and have no choice."

Until we receive the grace of baptism, we are indeed dead spiritually and are quite incapable of becoming like Christ, though there are those Orthodox theologians who believe otherwise. Even after we start on the process of theosis, as I said in an earlier post, we can "miss the mark", sin. Once we attain theosis, if we attain theosis, then we have no ability to sin because we wouldn't sin, our entire essence being focused on God rather than the self. But FK, that seldom, very seldom, happens in this life.


2,248 posted on 02/02/2006 7:38:51 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper
His point is that although God foresaw that Adam would sin, he did nothing to stop him, or the serpent, because having given him Free Will, he wouldn't take it back

I think the point the Protestants are making is that He foreknew what would happen before He even created man and gave him free will -- and He proceeded to make man anyway, knowing that he shall fail.

But, that is assuming way too much about God. Let's just say that He foreknew the effects of their decisions: If they sin, they fall; if they don't sin they stay.

2,251 posted on 02/02/2006 7:54:27 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Kolokotronis
Man was created in the image and likeness of God. The image of God contains Free Will. Its part of our being. It has nothing to do with being a parent who wants to be a friend so lets the kids run wild. :)

If I see my son pursue a course I KNOW, because of my experience, will lead him to doom, I will stop him because I love him. You (and Tertullian) seem to be saying that God either can't or won't do that for us. How is this love when He has a million times more authority over us as I have over my own son?

Sort of, but what it means is that God is neither the author of nor responsible for Evil; we are.

On this we are in full agreement. :)

Once we attain theosis, if we attain theosis, then we have no ability to sin because we wouldn't sin, our entire essence being focused on God rather than the self. But FK, that seldom, very seldom, happens in this life.

OK, so then for the "regular" saved person theosis is achieved after physical death. I'm sorry if I am asking you to repeat yourself, but after death, what seals the deal? Is it an immediate judgment of the life led, or is there activity that occurs after physical death that is needed?

2,304 posted on 02/05/2006 3:42:54 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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