Yes, I fully agree. I think we really do see eye to eye on this issue. That's why I was confused when you had me adopting some idea I had never heard of before. :)
The point I am making that having faith alone does not save. It must be faith with love. Faith alone has no love. This was Luther's mistake, again. If you include love within your definition of faith, I think we'd agree that - however, I would say that love is not "generated" by faith, but by Christ within us. EVERYTHING is a gift from God.
Yes, I do include love in the definition of true faith, and I agree with what you are saying here. Boy, this Luther guy is sure getting me into a lot of trouble recently, and I don't even know his specific teachings. :)
If we have a ticket for a nice new coat when we enter heaven (sinner's prayer, correct?), then why IS sanctification important? Tell me WHY it matters if I am a little dirty or very dirty UNDER that coat that allows me entrance into heaven???
I know I've answered this, but it may have been after your post or to someone else. The short answer is that a truly regenerated heart wants to be sanctified. It is an automatic result. Although, from a truly regenerated heart, the extent of dirt under the coat (remnant sins after salvation) may determine rewards in heaven, it will not affect salvation. We do not enter into heaven as our original sinful selves with a coat hiding us. The saved are new and unblemished in God's sight for salvation purposes.
You have said that works are merely a fruit, evidence of salvation. Why do you need this evidence, when you already "know" you are saved by your sinner's prayer? What is the purpose of having fruit to prove your salvation?
Oh, OK. Well, I suppose I would say that I don't need any evidence to prove my salvation because I don't seek to prove it to others. Only God and I can know for sure if I am saved. However, I do seek to have others be able to see Christ in me, for witnessing purposes as well as my own benefit. I said that the fruit is evidence, but I don't "need" the evidence for the purpose of proving anything. It wouldn't occur to me to say to someone "look at my good deeds, therefore know that I am a Christian".
I sense a contradiction in what is being said, or I am misunderstanding you. You believe you are of the elect, that you cannot fall, that your name cannot be blotted out. This is due to your sinner's prayer, as further evidenced by the fruits of salvation, your good works. Correct me if I am wrong so far.
Yes, I believe that I am of the elect and my name cannot be blotted out. I would replace "cannot fall" with "will not fall". Much more significantly, I would say that I am not a member of the elect because of the sinner's prayer. I was always a member of the elect from the beginning of time. The sinner's prayer triggers my knowledge of it, and completes the salvation event as I experience it in time. As a new regenerated Christian, I then have the indwelling Spirit to lead me for the rest of my life. If this has indeed happened, then good works will come forth.
A logical question you might have is that if I am of the elect from the beginning, but I have to accept Christ to be saved, then if I died the day before I would have come to Christ would I still be saved because I am of the elect? Good question. My only answer can be that this cannot happen because God keeps His own. If we are truly of the elect, then after reaching the age of reason we will accept Christ and we will be saved. He ordained that it would be so, and it therefore must happen.
Furthermore, what about those who DO NOT obey God, even though they have made the sinner's prayer? Does this say that the sinner's prayer does not infallibly tell us that we are saved? Ugh...
The Bible says that those who do not obey God do not love God. And, as we discussed and agreed upon before, those who do not love God cannot have true faith. Those who do not have faith cannot be saved. Therefore, the saying of the sinner's prayer by itself isn't necessarily efficacious. It is the sincerity behind it caused by God's original intent. That's why I said only you and God can know for sure, no matter what our "profession" of faith may be.
God bless.
So are we made righteous during the sancitification process, finalized in Purgatory, if necessary, or do we enter heaven, not actually being righteous, but covered by Christ's own righteousness? If you choose the later, what is the role of sanctification? I guess I am still not understanding entirely your particular belief on this issue.
Yes, I do include love in the definition of true faith, and I agree with what you are saying here
So if we don't love, we aren't saved? If you agree, at what point, then, are we saved? I see faith in different degrees. There is faith of the intellect, faith that speaks of trusting in God to fulfill His promises, and faith that obeys the Lord out of love. When the Scriptures speak of "walking in faith", I see a fully-formed faith, a faith with love added to it, as in James. But at what point, then, does this "faith" of day 1 (sinner's prayer) become "saving faith", sufficient to enter heaven? I am not sure we can EVER know that infallibly until we die in our Father's arms...
I suppose what I am trying to understand is that you seem to believe that one must have faith and love to enter heaven, but it should be perfectly clear that some do not have both, and others who believe they do, at one point will admit that they didn't. Thus, there is a time where our love is insufficient to allow us to call our faith "saving faith". Yet, how many Protestants do you know, honestly, that think that their faith is not saving yet? See what I am trying to say? At what point do you have "saving faith", enough to die that instant and go to heaven? During the sinner's prayer? If so, then THAT determines our eternal destiny? But how can we love and have faith in Christ at that point, sufficient to save?
Although, from a truly regenerated heart, the extent of dirt under the coat (remnant sins after salvation) may determine rewards in heaven, it will not affect salvation.
I have heard this before, maybe 500 posts ago. I don't see in Scriptures where our judgment upon our death will determine a good or better reward. The Scriptures point to either eternal happiness, or an everlasting grinding of teeth in hell. There doesn't seem to be any mention about our judgment being used to determine the square footage of our plot in heaven (or other such talk).
I believe that the Church teaches that men will have different rewards in heaven, but this is more based on Tradition then Scripture (LOL - you are following Tradition!). We see it this way. We ALL will receive our fill in heaven. God will fill our hearts totally. However, to the degree we are sanctified here on earth, the "size" of our heart will grow. Thus, some will enter with a "one gallon sized jug" that will be filled, others will have a "55 gallon sized drum" that will be filled with God. But again, that is not from the Scriptures explicitly!
Well, I suppose I would say that I don't need any evidence to prove my salvation because I don't seek to prove it to others. Only God and I can know for sure if I am saved.
Well, I understand your point of view, although I still am not so absolutely confident that my name is in the Book of the Elect right now. I have a moral confidence of it, but not absolute - that would seem to take away God's Freedom, in case I decided to just start sinning whenever I felt like it - although then you'll say "I never was saved to begin with"! Which then we go in circles by me saying "then how can we know WE are saved in 5 years?" In this same thread, this issue came up with another woman. She said that we know we are saved by the fruit of our works. She said we can tell by our harvest. I responded that we are fruit growers of today, not fruit speculators of the future. We only know what we are producing or have produced - not what we WILL produce...
Yes, I believe that I am of the elect and my name cannot be blotted out. I would replace "cannot fall" with "will not fall".
Scripture clearly states we CAN fall: "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor 10:12
I don't think we can KNOW we are of the Elect. That information is reserved for God alone. HE knows, and the Elect will infallibly be saved. But we can only HOPE we are of the Elect, our works of TODAY giving us a "proof" that we are indeed following the promptings of the Spirit - for the Spirit is Whom moves us to obey the Commandment of Love.
A logical question you might have is that if I am of the elect from the beginning, but I have to accept Christ to be saved, then if I died the day before I would have come to Christ would I still be saved because I am of the elect?
The day BEFORE you accept Christ? How is that possible to know that? I suppose you are saying that GOD foresees that we would accept Christ? If that were the case, then God would keep everyone alive until that day - since God desires that all men be saved. We are now treading the waters of speculation...I prefer not to discuss such opinions on such a matter - who can know who is right?
The Bible says that those who do not obey God do not love God. And, as we discussed and agreed upon before, those who do not love God cannot have true faith.
"True faith"? I suppose that means faith with love? It appears that Protestants have an aversion to the word "love" prefering to "hide" it in the definition of "faith". Does a faith without works of love save? At what point does God "justify" a person, or "save" him? If it is at the sinner's prayer, what sort of love does that person possess with his faith?
I, as a Catholic, see it this way. We are justified, seen righteous in God's eyes by faith in Christ, a gift strictly from God. However, this justification, our being righteous in His eyes, is not necessarily permanent. We must become sanctified in Christ. It is a process. That initial justification is only the first step. We don't receive "loving faith" at the moment of our initial justification. Love comes from sanctification over the course of our lives. Love is learned. Love is practiced. Thus, when considering our eternal destiny, our faith that we received (and grows) must be added to the love we receive (and grows) for eternal salvation. If we are of the elect, this WILL happen. But we don't know. Thus, we "work out our salvation in fear and trembling".
It is the sincerity behind it caused by God's original intent
So YOUR intent of sincerity determines your eternal salvation? Doesn't that sound like a "work", something you earned? Another problem - what about those who were "sincere", but fell away 10 years later? I am sorry, but I just don't agree with the concept of entering eternal life based on a "sincere" sentence said long time ago.
By the way, I appreciate your answers. I hope I am not challenging you too much.
Regards