Replies

Dewey, I've read your proof texts in both post #2211 & 2212. More about personal proof texting in a few lines. I am, I must say, right back where I was when I said I simply can't see where you people are coming from with your "once saved always saved" theories. As I understand what you profess to find in the bible, "Salvation is obtained through confessing to God that your a sinner. Asking for forgiveness and by faith asking Christ to come into your life. In to your fife (sic) for what purpose? To lead rule and guide through his word (the Bible)" Is this all? Does this happen at any random time in life? Suppose I lead a sinful, self absorbed life for 25 years and then decide all of a sudden on my 26th birthday to do exactly as you have suggested. Having done that, and assuming I live to be 101, will I spend the next 75 years in a completely sinless state? Or, conversely, am I now free to sin vigorously, as Luther unfortunately put it, without consequence to myself or creation around me?

Dewy, I suspect that your concept of what it means to be saved and what I mean when I say that one may attain a state of theosis are very different things. For you, what exactly does being saved mean; is it a temporal thing, an eternal thing, both? In this life, how does it manifest itself? After death? Finally, how do you conceive of the Fnal Judgment? How are we judged; what's the measure?

As for proof texting, allow me to suggest that unless one has received knowledge through the Holy Spirit, it is quite impossible to correctly interpret scripture. As you undoubtedly know, what you use for scripture, for the most part, was determined by The Church long prior to the rise of anything like Protestantism in councils of the hierarchs of The Church including many of the men we call The Fathers. Let us posit for the moment that these men, including the Fathers, were filled with knowledge by the Holy Spirit in order to perceive, among the many contenders for inclusion into the canon of scripture, those writings which indeed are inspired by God and appropriate for the inculcation of the Faith in an authoritative way. I assume you will accept this proposition since to say otherwise is to view Christian scriptures in the way Mohammaden heretics do theirs. Now, if the Fathers and other hierarchs and holy men of The Church were so inspired by the Holy Spirit as to correctly recognize true scripture, does it not necessarily follow that a) they were saved by your definition of salvation and b) on account of that salvation and the knowledge and understanding which flows from that, were in a position to correctly interpret those scriptures?

Assuming your honest answer is yes, what explains the fact that none, not one, of The Fathers, nor any hierarch nor holy man within the Church for at least the first 1500 years of its existence, ever suggested the sort of "salvation" you apparently believe in and further believe is testified to in scripture. What happened? Were The Fathers inspired as to what was appropriately scripture but the world had to wait until the Reformation before a correct interpretation of the scripture came about? Were they "sort of inspired", "sort of saved"? Clearly Dewy, all the proof texting in the world cannot substitute for proper interpretation now can it? If the Rev. Billy Bob Jeff with his degree from Ed's Bible College tells you one thing about the meaning of a verse from scripture, and a man who was in part responsible for the inclusion of that piece of scripture in the canon tells you something else, who are you going to believe?

THE HOLY SPIRIT IN SALVATION

Some find it easy to recognize the work of the Holy Spirit immersing a person into the Body of Christ and regenerating the person while denying His involvement in other parts of salvation. They see that a person isn't "saved" without these works of the Spirit. Yet some reject any involvement of the Holy Spirit up until these two works take place. There are distinct problems with the convicting work of the Spirit of God and His giving the gift of faith. I am amazed at the lack of understanding concerning the fallen condition of the human race and the biblical descriptions of the condition of mankind before salvation. This message involves the importance of the work of the Holy Spirit and the gospel.

The first question on #1 is: "What is so important about the gospel for salvation?"

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

This is presented as the inherent power of God unto salvation. The facts of the gospel are the agency by which a person is saved and nothing else. This the mechanism by which agency one believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. Even though the gospel concerning Jesus Christ has a power of its own, the gospel itself cannot bring salvation without the working of the Holy Spirit. Without the work of the Spirit of God, a person could present the gospel a billion times and not even one person would be saved. This is more than His baptizing work and His regenerating work. He must work to overcome everything in mankind that prevents him or her from believing the gospel.

Man cannot generate the faith necessary to be saved. The best any human being can do is to believe or give assent to historical facts and accept them as true and real. Without divine intervention, no one can or would be saved. Why? There are at least eight problems with fallen mankind that make it impossible to believe the gospel with an acceptable faith. Every human being has at least two types of spiritual blindness: natural and Satanic. Both of these are mental. Because of the sin nature, his or her being can't see the facts of the gospel for what they are. Their perception can't find the facts as God designed them and they grope and grasp nothing. Satan and demons are always available to place a mental blind preventing perception when the gospel is presented. In a sense this blind makes them instant zombies in a mental Never Never Land concerning the facts of the gospel. Paul teaches that all men are spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1, 2, 5).

Eph 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
V.5 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Man has nothing in himself, including faith or works, that would even direct his attention to God.

How the Holy Spirit relates to unbelievers in the dispensation of grace.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This makes it possible for the Holy Spirit to accomplish His work in the new dispensation (Grace) toward the world of mankind. Jesus Christ promised to send Another Comforter after He had departed. His work toward the world of unsaved mankind would be to reprove {convince, convict} the world of sin, righteousness and judgment.

He convicts of the single sin "because they believed not in me" that is of not believing in Christ. When the Spirit convicts a person of that sin, He does it through the facts of the gospel. "Christ died for our sins" He was our Substitute.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

It is through faith in Him that the person is saved. He sees that he hasn't believed in Christ, his Substitute, and believes through the convincing of the Spirit. Interestingly enough, when a person believes the gospel, he no longer is capable of committing that sin. What sin? The sin of unbelief. Christ's righteousness is affirmed by His resurrection which was followed by his ascension. The Father accepted Him and His human body and nature in the third heaven – the first living human body to enter the third heaven. The Holy Spirit is the Person of the Godhead that is resident on earth in this dispensation and who is the Restrainer of evil. When He departs with the Church at the Rapture, evil will have freedom throughout the 70th Week of Daniel.

The first and foremost mechanism for removing all of the human in-capabilities for believing is the gift of faith. Paul taught this in at least three passages. The Holy Spirit provides the faith as a gift for the person to believe the gospel

(Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Ephesians 2:8, 9). This directly relates to the convicting work of the Spirit whereby He convinces the mind of the person of his need for the work of Christ. The person takes the gift of faith and believes the gospel and is saved. At the specific point in time the Holy Spirit then brings about spiritual birth (after faith – Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;) and immerses the person into Christ

(1 Cor. 12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the Person of the Godhead that brings salvation to those who are saved in this dispensation of Grace. Without Him, there is no salvation. With Him, there is perfect salvation.

The invitation to come to Christ for salvation:

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come . And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.