Even though "ordinary" statements are not necessarily infallible, we still give proper obedience to his statements! Infallibility applies only to explain the Deposit of Faith. But there are many issues that are not part of this deposit - such as "can a priest be married"? Such ecclesiastical disciplines are not part of the Faith passed down from the Apostles.
I also did not know that the idea of the immaculate conception of Mary is so relatively new? Was it the case that the idea was always "there", but was only made "official" in the last 150 years, or is this truly new?
The former. St. Justin the Martyr around 150 AD wrote about the New Eve, paralleling the New Adam of Romans 5. Him and other writers of the time (St. Ireneaus and Tertullian, for example) note that God works in parallel manners. If Adam and Eve (both sinless, they note) fell, God would "untie the knot of their discord" in the same manner - through TWO sinless people, the New Adam and New Eve. Thus, the idea of the Immaculate Conception is quite old - it is just not DOGMA - infallible teaching - until 1854, I think.
I know that you agree with me that clergy of any Christian faith should always be held to higher standards than the non-clerical father in your example.
Yes, we should just be careful and not jump the gun, remembering that the priest is a spiritual father rather than a middle manager in the Church.
"...wouldn't you have to say that my pastor is necessarily doomed? How about Billy Graham? By this reasoning, all well trained and very learned leaders of Protestant churches are actively leading people away from the Church of Christ. INCLUDING CHILDREN. They must have special places in hell reserved for them, no? :)
Seemed determine to catch me here, huh? ;-) We cannot know how much a person realizes that the Catholic Church is the TRUE Church, that it subsists within it, and that it was formed to bring people into union with Christ. Just because you are visibly not a Roman Catholic doesn't mean you have REJECTED the ACTUAL Roman Catholic Church. We would hope you are rejecting a misperception of it!
I do believe there is one and only one truth, whether I know it, or like it, or not. I seek to know it and reckon it, and of course in my biased opinion, on balence, so far so good! :)
Fair enough
we both believe that the Spirit indwells and guides the saved person. This is the truth. We disagree on how that happens, you believe it comes through the Church, and I believe it happens in a more direct manner.
The Spirit certainly can come in a "more direct manner", but not to the exclusion of the Church, which is what I believe Protestantism teaches. How can a person reject the Church that gave us the Bible, gives us the Apostolic teachings, and then claim to be following the Spirit? Protestantism rejects Catholicism's claim. Catholicism rejects Protestantism's authority to break away - admitting that some Protestants still remain, unknowingly, in the Church.
Jesus was certainly "tolerant" of John's methods even though they were not His own. He sacrificed no truth to hold this view.
I am not arguing over teaching methods, but teaching contents! John and Jesus taught the Kingdom as near. Repent and believe! The Church continues this teaching.
OK, why would anyone say "NO"? Who wouldn't accept such a gift?
Faith is the gift, correct? What is faith? "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb 11:1). It is not seen yet! The PROMISE made is just that - a promise of eternal life. Thus, people are free to not accept the promise for whatever reason (we've heard a number of excuses). Again, we base our faith on the word of others - that God speaks to us through the Scripture is based on faith, not on visible reality.
Does God give more grace to some than others? Are some people born with a larger capacity for cooperation than others? Would that come from God, since God created "all of" all of us? Doesn't God Himself create the free will that we would use?
Yes to all.
I also believe that I could have gone for the rest of my life without learning this new teaching and still have gone to heaven. I "KNOW" I will never learn a new teaching now that will get me into heaven where I was lost before (now).
Perhaps. I don't agree that we can infallibly know that we are of the elect. That takes away from God's freedom to choose whether we deserve heaven or not. Or to condemn whom He wills. Perhaps in the future, you will learn of a greater appreciation of the Eucharist, partake in it, and learn to be more virtuous, more humble, etc. Who can say what this "new" devotion will mean on our spiritual lives. God wants us to come to the fullness of the Truth, not to "just barely make it"!
My faith says that the Spirit will always point me toward the narrow road, even if I sometimes stray through briers or rocky sidepaths.
:-) as long as you can identify the "voice of the Spirit", that would work great! Sometimes, that is hard to do. Discernment is a difficult ART (not a science) that takes a lot of work and prayer. My point is that we are given more of God's instruments of graces through the Church's liturgical life, through her devotional life. I am not saying that a person CANNOT attain to heaven without this, but it makes matters easier, for those who are aware of the gift God has given us. If people knew what the Church was, and they desired to enter into Christ, they would RUN to enter the Church, since Christ works most powerfully through His Body, His Bride, the Church
I thank you for the very kind words. I am in great admiration of your vast knowledge of scripture. You represent your faith exceedingly well.
NO!!! You are tempting my primary vice, pride! Careful, Joe...Ooo, head is starting to swell... Danger, danger...Engage "humility manuevers"... "Joe, you don't know what you are talking about. And you got a lot of work before you could even hope to know the Old Testament like your separated brothers..." AH, swelling coming down. Much better...! :-)
Pride puffs up, love builds up.
Brother in Christ
Oh, I understand that, I wouldn't expect you or any good Catholic to cherry pick from the Pope! He wouldn't be the Pope if he didn't know Catholicism inside and out. :)
Thus, the idea of the Immaculate Conception is quite old - it is just not DOGMA - infallible teaching - until 1854, I think.
Thanks for the info on this. I had no idea about the connection between Mary and Eve.
Seemed determine to catch me here, huh? ;-) We cannot know how much a person realizes that the Catholic Church is the TRUE Church, that it subsists within it, and that it was formed to bring people into union with Christ.
Yup! :) But, I accept your answer. It beats the heck out of a declarative "All non-Catholics will rot in hell!". That would have been a total bummer.
The Spirit certainly can come [to a saved person] in a "more direct manner", but not to the exclusion of the Church, which is what I believe Protestantism teaches.
I understand how you could say that. As for myself, I certainly do not believe that the Spirit bypasses Catholics and only leads Protestants. And on this thread, among other Protestants, I don't feel lonely at all in this view.
If you say that the Spirit is leading you through the Church to believe in a thing, then I am in no position to accuse you of being a liar. On the same issue, I might say that the Spirit is leading me in a different direction. I agree with you that there is only one truth, therefore one or both of us is wrong in receiving the Spirit's leadership. So, we work through it as best as we can. I can't explain why this happens, all I can say is that we'll find out someday.
Me: "OK, why would anyone say "NO"? Who wouldn't accept such a gift? "
Faith is the gift, correct? What is faith? "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb 11:1). It is not seen yet! The PROMISE made is just that - a promise of eternal life. Thus, people are free to not accept the promise for whatever reason (we've heard a number of excuses).
This is fascinating. Here is the same verse from my NIV:
1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. [Emphasis added]
This completely changes everything as far as how we look at this verse, doesn't it? I can't think of a bigger difference in all the verses we have swapped. Very interesting.
But, getting back to your point, it appears you are saying that the lost person never gets to the stage of turning down a sure thing because he first rejects the required faith. OK, but you would have to admit that the person still has no conception of what he is rejecting. Else, he would obviously accept the gift. That was my point. With fair knowledge, who would say 'No'?
Me: "My faith says that the Spirit will always point me toward the narrow road, even if I sometimes stray through briers or rocky sidepaths."
:-) as long as you can identify the "voice of the Spirit", that would work great! Sometimes, that is hard to do. Discernment is a difficult ART (not a science) that takes a lot of work and prayer.
True enough. Between my bleatings, I pray I will recognize my Shepherd's voice when He calls. :)
NO!!! You are tempting my primary vice...
LOL! God bless.