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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; Cronos; annalex; jo kus
FK, at the risk of making this a longer read than I wanted, I think this will give you a better idera of how the Orthodox see their connection with God and where freedom comes in.

Hope this helps shed some light on our perspective and how it contrasts with Protestant and Catholic beliefs, if any.

2,029 posted on 01/26/2006 3:23:08 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Cronos; annalex; jo kus; Forest Keeper

That's really very, very good, Kosta. It sets out the distinction between "Do this or you will go to hell" and "Do this and you will become like God."


2,030 posted on 01/26/2006 3:48:58 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; Cronos; jo kus
the view that became dominant in the Christian West—i.e., the view that conceived of "nature" as distinct from "grace" and that understood original sin as an inherited guilt rather than as a deprivation of freedom.

I do not find anything I recognize as specifically Catholic western in these errors, and errors they are. Nature is a part of the Divine Creation and is a conduit of grace; the original sin is an inherited condition but is not guilt.

Pretty good article overall, though.

2,036 posted on 01/26/2006 5:03:54 PM PST by annalex
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis
Thanks for the article, it does help.

Freedom in God, as enjoyed by Adam, implied the possibility of falling away from God. This is the unfortunate choice made by man, which led Adam to a subhuman and unnatural existence. The most unnatural aspect of his new state was death. In this perspective, "original sin" is understood not so much as a state of guilt inherited from Adam but as an unnatural condition of human life that ends in death.

So every human in existence (since Adam) throughout time has spent his entire time on earth in an unnatural state? Given that you have said that God experiences all time simultaneously, how would you put the fall into the context of God's plan? (I know you know that God is omniscient.) Would you say that it was God's plan that mankind should spend 99.999999% of his collective existence on earth in an unnatural state? Would you say that God changed His plan based on Adam's choice? IOW, was it God's original plan that all people would be born immortal on earth, but man foiled this plan?

In the East, man is regarded as fully man when he participates in God; in the West, man's nature is believed to be autonomous, sin is viewed as a punishable crime, and grace is understood to grant forgiveness.

Hence, in the West, the aim of the Christian is justification, but in the East, it is rather communion with God and deification. In the West, the church is viewed in terms of mediation (for the bestowing of grace) and authority (for guaranteeing security in doctrine); in the East, the church is regarded as a communion in which God and man meet once again and a personal experience of divine life becomes possible."

This is especially instructive. How would you phrase God's view of sin? Is there a need for God to forgive sin?

Deification? I know you and Kolo have talked about theosis, becoming more "God-like". "Deification" implies an idea to me of becoming "as a God", or "equal to God". Does it go to this extent, or is it an unreachable goal?

2,069 posted on 01/28/2006 1:12:15 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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