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Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will
Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD

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To: Full Court

Thanks for your reply. However, I don't think your religion actually "puts the Bible above everything" as that would be above God, so I think you mean something else, and I think I understand what you mean: a sola scriptura theology. And with your expert's quote, I think therefore you likely fall into Category 2 above.

I'm also thinking you simplified a bit in saying all that the Bible contains "all you can know about God." Have you ever looked at your child for example and known more about God? You wouldn't say God is limited to words or can be completely and fully described by words and concepts, would you? Can we learn more about God, for another example, from the love of others as well as the love you give? Or from His creation? Don't these have the potential to teach us more about the source of love and about the Creator?

thanks for your posts..


6,301 posted on 05/11/2006 4:35:44 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: Agrarian; 1000 silverlings
The Slavic Gospel and Epistles have personal reading markings that were (and still are) followed by monks and pious laymen -- by following them, one reads a Gospel every week (i.e. goes through all 4, 13 times a year), and the rest of the NT (except for Revelation) about 7 times a year. The Psalter is commonly read through once every 3 weeks or so

I can tell you that those are few and far inbetween. I come from an Orthodox Slavic culture and rather than read Gospels and the NT the pious attend "spiritual sessions" with their "spiritual fathers." They are an open question and answer forum. I can honestly say that reading the Scriptures is an alien habit to indigenous Orthodox cultures and that the majority of housolds probably don't even have the "Holy Script" (Bible) or, if they do, it is prominently displayed among cherished books on the book shelf, possibly next to a small icon, but never removed.

The majority of peasantry (farmers in American jargon) wouldn't dare read the Evangelium (Gospels), for fear of not interpreting correctly, or God forbid falling into some kind of heresy, or even be bored, and most probably think of the NT as the Bible. Most of the knowledge of the faith is obtained through the litugry especially during great feasts and fasts, the icons, and spiritual sessions.

6,302 posted on 05/11/2006 5:22:49 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Full Court
Perhaps, all things considered it was the most merciful thing for the child. God would be the one to know that, not you or I

I am sure that the slaughter of Egyptian children was perhaps the most merciful thing for them too. Somehow, Chirst is not in that picture!

6,303 posted on 05/11/2006 5:32:45 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Full Court
Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

To answer that I say emphatically YES! God made us rational beings capable virtue. Yes, we are perfectly capable, by God's grace, to ask Him why has He made us thus!

And, please don't quote Paul to me! He was useful for the success of the Church which otherwise would have died out, by brining the redacted Judaism to the Gentiles and creating a religion that would be unrecognizable to Moses.

In that sense, he did God's work, but let's put it in proper perspective. He changed dietary laws, circumcision, and just about everything that made Judaism Judaism externally, symbolically and historically. He is even suspected of being a Gnostic by some. What he did was good for Christianity, there is no doubt about that. Let's leave it at that.

6,304 posted on 05/11/2006 5:43:38 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; 1000 silverlings

I specified monks and some pious laymen. I certainly did not mean to imply that this is or was common practice.

For most of the history of the Church, manuscripts of the Scripture were precious hand-copied items. The phenomenon of having the people read readily available Scriptures for themselves at home was one that never existed until the invention of the printing press. This is something that Protestants forget -- everyone certainly didn't have a Gideon's bible in his cloak. The Scriptures were, in those early days, and for centuries thereafter, primarily something that was read publically in church settings.

That said, I am relating what Orthodox spiritual fathers are known to have instilled in their spiritual children in Russia, especially in the 18th and 19th centuries, when the combination of readily available Bibles and a spiritual awakening was present.

The writings of and about the Optina elders talk about this emphasis on reading the Scriptures, as does St. Ignaty (Brianchaninov), and as does The Way of the Pilgrim. In Greece, the most prominent thing in Photios Kontoglou's private study was an analogion with a Gospel on it -- his knowledge of Scripture was legendary (he was a layman all his life.) Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky) was affectionately known as "a walking concordance" when he taught in pre-revolutionary Russian seminaries, and inculcated that emphasis in those he taught.

St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco was trained in Serbian seminaries during the exile and was influenced by Metropolitan Anthony and by the great Serbian bishop Nikolai of Zhicha. One famous story about St. John is that there was a service with a very long reading from the Scriptures. The reader, feeling the service was going on too long, decided to quietly turn two pages at once, thinking no-one would notice that two pages were skipped. St. John stopped him in mid-sentence, and from where he stood, recited from memory the entire missing two pages.

At an Orthodox parish here in America, a visiting deacon from Russia about 20 years ago was invited to read the Gospel (not a short one). Too late, they realized that they only had an English Gospel, and that the deacon's English was quite poor. The deacon calmly took the Gospel, put it on the analogion, and proceeded to chant the entire Gospel passage in Slavonic from memory -- those in the congregation who knew Slavonic said he didn't miss a word.

I did not claim that these things are or were the rule in Orthodox countries -- if it came across that way, I did not mean it to, and I appreciate the correction. I simply was conveying that for those seriously pursuing the spiritual life in Orthodox countries (ones that were free from the Turkish yoke during the time of the printing press, that is), the personal reading of the Scriptures was encouraged, and it is strongly encouraged today to read, meditate on, and memorize the Scriptures.

It goes without saying that for every Orthodox Christian, one's understanding of the Scriptures is shaped by the liturgical services and the guidance of one's spiritual father. If one had a choice between attending the services every day and hearing the Scripture passages there vs. having the whole Bible in one's hands only to be turned loose without any guidance on how to understand it (as the Ethiopian eunuch noted, how can one understand unless someone explains?) -- well, I personally think that any Orthodox Christian would be wise to choose attending the services and going to confession, just as did the people in Kosta's account of life in the place where he grew up.


6,305 posted on 05/11/2006 5:58:30 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: annalex; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; Dr. Eckleburg; fortheDeclaration; Agrarian
Luke 1:28 "kecharitomene", is the perfect passive participle of "charitow" which means to bestow favor upon, favor highly, bless (Bauer, Gingrich and Danker).

Ephesians 1:6 "echaritosen" is the aorist active indicative of "charitow", the same word. The word you want to use is a noun in the same Ephesians 1:6 "To the praise of the glory of his grace (charis), wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

Thayer translates "charitow", "to pursue with grace, compass with favor; to honor with blessing". He translates the noun "charis", "that kindness by which God bestows favors upon the ill deserving, and grants to sinners the pardon of their offenses, and bids them accept eternal salvation through Christ."

Luke 1:28 and Ephesians 1:6 are the only two places in the scriptures where the verb "charitow" is used. It was the Vulgate that changed the usage to conform to the church's dogma.



"That indeed explains that we are to imitate Mary through the keeping of the Word, and gives us an example of veneration of Mary"

That is just nonsense. The plain meaning of the text is whatever blessing His mother has is available to anyone who follows Him. He is saying there is nothing special about her blessing for He uses the same word. There is no veneration here. If anything Jesus is deflecting any veneration of His mother by making the blessing available to all who obey.

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
6,306 posted on 05/11/2006 7:03:01 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: annalex
Read it, every once in a while.

Perhaps that's your problem. We're exhorted to read the Bible more than "once in a while."

And when we depend on Scripture as our guide, we learn that good works are the fruit of the Spirit, gifts of God, and not something we do in order to merit salvation. No creature merits salvation.

But thank God, "Mercy triumphs over Justice." (James 2:13.)

"...the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear." (Deuteronomy 29:3-4)

"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." (Deuteronomy 30:5-7)

"...to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins an d an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me." (Acts 26:18).

"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit with in you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." (Ezekiel 36:26)

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee." (Psalm 65:4)

"I say that man, before he is renewed into the new creation of the Spirit's kingdom, does and endeavours nothing to prepare himself for that new creation and kingdom, and when he is re-created has does and endeavors nothing towards his perseverance in that kingdom; but the Spirit alone works both blessings in us, regenerating us, and preserving us when regenerate, without ourselves..." Martin Luther (Bondage of the Will pg. 268)

"Indeed the Word of God is like the sun, shining upon all those to whom it is proclaimed, but with no effect among the blind. Now, all of us are blind by nature in this respect... Accordingly, it cannot penetrate into our minds unless the Spirit, as the inner teacher, through his illumination makes entry for it." (Calvin's Institutes 3.2.34.)

6,307 posted on 05/11/2006 7:20:08 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: annalex

I post what God says and you complain.

Face it, being kind to an animal is not preaching the Gospel.

Animals do not even need to be saved.


6,308 posted on 05/11/2006 7:24:32 PM PDT by Full Court (click on my name to see the baby!!)
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To: kosta50; Full Court; blue-duncan; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; 1000 silverlings
And, please don't quote Paul to me! He was useful for the success of the Church which otherwise would have died out, by brining the redacted Judaism to the Gentiles and creating a religion that would be unrecognizable to Moses.

In that sense, he did God's work, but let's put it in proper perspective. He changed dietary laws, circumcision, and just about everything that made Judaism Judaism externally, symbolically and historically. He is even suspected of being a Gnostic by some. What he did was good for Christianity, there is no doubt about that. Let's leave it at that.

Wow. That's the first time I've seen someone trash Paul on these threads. I guess when too much of what Paul writes contradicts what you believe, toss Paul out on his ear.

Amazing, yet it explains why you do not believe Romans.

6,309 posted on 05/11/2006 7:31:48 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Full Court
I post what God says and you complain.

LOL. That seems to be their strategy.

6,310 posted on 05/11/2006 7:33:53 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: blue-duncan; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; Dr. Eckleburg; fortheDeclaration; Agrarian
One thing your sources got right, "charis" is grace. That is the primary meaning. Favor is secondary meaning. "Charitoo" has "charis" for its stem and means, likewise, bestow "charis" -- bestow grace.

"Kecharitomene" is used just this time. A trip to a concordance shows that; I gave you the online resource. Other formations from "charis", naturally, are used throughout the Bible.

The plain meaning of the text is whatever blessing His mother has is available to anyone who follows Him. He is saying there is nothing special about her blessing for He uses the same word

That is true, and indeed Mary has received the same grace we all receive. There are no different kinds of grace. Yet, the woman venerated Mary and Christ agreed with His "Yea".

6,311 posted on 05/11/2006 7:35:41 PM PDT by annalex
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To: Agrarian; 1000 silverlings
I did not claim that these things are or were the rule in Orthodox countries -- if it came across that way, I did not mean it to, and I appreciate the correction

I didn't mean it as a correction, Agriarian, rather as a clarification. You are absolutely right about the Orthodox Church relying on the Scriptures. Anything written by Elder Cleopa, for example, is full of biblical references; the same is found in Philokalia and even in ordinary homilies on Sundays.

It sort of goes without saying that the clergy, especially the monastics, would "know" the Bible — and by that it is understood by rote, from having read it countless numbers of times.

The simple Orthodox folk, the people of God, do not presume that they can just open the Bible and "understand" the depths of it, let alone teach it. What I wirte is what I believe at the moment, but I never presume it's the truth. Despite my objections, in the final anlysis I always defer to those who are supposed "know the Bible," and follow a paraphrased Taoist adage: Orthodoxy is the way it is even if I don't understand it. I go to my confessions, and experience faith through Divine Liturgy, leaving my opinions and (mis)conceptions behind.

6,312 posted on 05/11/2006 7:36:51 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
I am sure that the slaughter of Egyptian children was perhaps the most merciful thing for them too. Somehow, Chirst is not in that picture!

Perhaps it was, we don't know.

I have lost a child so I perhaps have a different outlook on God's will.

Psalms 137:8  O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

9  Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

I don't quite understand that verse, but I accept that God can do no evil, and I accept the fact that I don't always understand why God does something.

1 Chronicles 16:34  O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

BTW, in the Authorized Version, commonaly called the KJV, the phrase "his mercy endureth for ever" is found 41 times in 41 verses.

6,313 posted on 05/11/2006 7:37:21 PM PDT by Full Court (click on my name to see the baby!!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
we learn that good works are the fruit of the Spirit, gifts of God, and not something we do in order to merit salvation. No creature merits salvation.

Yup. Still, works are necessary. The Bible tells me so. See my 6283.

The rest of your supply of quotes, as usual, does not speak to the issue you yourself raised.

6,314 posted on 05/11/2006 7:37:52 PM PDT by annalex
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To: kosta50; Agrarian; 1000 silverlings
I can honestly say that reading the Scriptures is an alien habit to indigenous Orthodox cultures and that the majority of housolds probably don't even have the "Holy Script" (Bible) or, if they do, it is prominently displayed among cherished books on the book shelf, possibly next to a small icon, but never removed.

Acts 17:10  ¶And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

6,315 posted on 05/11/2006 7:39:30 PM PDT by Full Court (click on my name to see the baby!!)
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To: Full Court

When you don't understand what God says, but imagine that you are making a point to the arghument, I complain.

Animals do not need to be saved, true. However, they will be affected by the Second Coming of Christ, and we are told by Christ to preach to all creatures.


6,316 posted on 05/11/2006 7:40:52 PM PDT by annalex
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; kosta50; Full Court; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; 1000 silverlings

"He changed dietary laws, circumcision, and just about everything that made Judaism Judaism externally, symbolically and historically"

Isn't that funny. All along I thought it was Peter and James at the church meeting in Jerusalem who came up with the idea to write to the Gentiles that things were going to be different. Seems that meeting was one of the evidences used here to prove Peter's primacy since he had so much to do leading that discussion. I guess you use it when it is convenient and disavow it when it contradicts your position.


6,317 posted on 05/11/2006 7:41:23 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: kosta50
And, please don't quote Paul to me!

The books that Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit are the books that directly apply to the church today.

But since you don't want to hear it from Paul, here, you can hear it from God.

Job 38:1  ¶Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2  Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3  Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4  ¶Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5  Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8  Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? 9  When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

Job 40:1  ¶Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,

2  Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

3  Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

4  Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

5  Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

6  ¶Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

7  Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

8  Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

9  Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

10  Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.

11  Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.

6,318 posted on 05/11/2006 7:46:20 PM PDT by Full Court (click on my name to see the baby!!)
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To: Agrarian; kosta50; 1000 silverlings
If one had a choice between attending the services every day and hearing the Scripture passages there vs. having the whole Bible in one's hands only to be turned loose without any guidance on how to understand it (as the Ethiopian eunuch noted, how can one understand unless someone explains?) -- well, I personally think that any Orthodox Christian would be wise to choose attending the services and going to confession, just as did the people in Kosta's account of life in the place where he grew up.

John 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 John 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

6,319 posted on 05/11/2006 7:50:12 PM PDT by Full Court (click on my name to see the baby!!)
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To: kosta50
It sort of goes without saying that the clergy, especially the monastics,

It would seem to me that anyone with the slightest bit of spiritual interest could master the Scriptures themselves.

Especially now that we know so many of the priest and monks have been involved in homosexuality.

I mean, those aren't the people I would be trusting with my soul.

6,320 posted on 05/11/2006 7:53:16 PM PDT by Full Court (click on my name to see the baby!!)
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