Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
I take Jesus at His word.
"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." -- John 17:9
"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -- John 10:26-29
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." -- Acts 20:28
Christ's death was sufficient for all, but efficacious only for the elect whom God has given Christ to redeem. Christ's blood was shed for those who have received faith, unless all the world is "the church." Is all the world "the church?"
...John Owen points out in His classic work, The Death of Death, that only three positions are possible regarding the extent of the atonement: (a) Jesus died for the sins of all people, (b) Jesus died for all the sins of some people, (c) Jesus died for some sins of all people. Now, if position c is correct, then all are still in their sins. If position a is correct, then why are all not saved? If the answer is because of unbelief, we ask: Is not unbelief a sin for which Christ died to atone (Jn.17.9)? If Christ died for the sin of unbelief for all people, then why are people punished for the sin of unbelief? The only consistent position is b, for it satisfies both reason and experience..."
Christ's death did not make salvation possible; His death saves. Christ's death did not make reconciliation possible; His death reconciled. Christ's death and resurrection accomplished everything God intended -- the acquittal of the sheep by the Son who took upon Himself the guilt and thus the punishment of the sheep whom God had given Him.
Man-centered philosophies will always tell you that His work is incomplete and variable and in need of augmentation by other men and institutions.
But they are wrong. They just want the power to manipulate you. Same as it ever was.
You didn't answer my question earlier. Did Christ die for your sins, or not, jo kus?
Jesus came "for the lost sheep of Israel", which ties in nicely with Harley's assertion of a post ago. In fact, like it or lump it, the Jews are Calvinists. :)
The Catholic and Orthodox Churches believe in absolute, inviolate, and perptual virginity of Theotokos, the Birthgiver of God, Mary His Mother. It is inconceivable that Mary would have carnal relations, or desires after having carried the precious and sacred Child. She loved God with all her heart and mind and soul. Nor would Blessed Jospeh have been the man he was if he defiled "Sacred Ground" as Agrarian states.
This passage is a difficult one (so much for five year-old children understanding Scripture!), especially in view of the word ewV which means till or until, but is also translated as unto. The word eginwosken, which comes from "to know" (ginwsko) which was a Jewish idiom for sexcual intercourse, and does not support what the Church came to believe.
Personally, I can't imagine that someone as blessed as she was would even entartain the thought, and +Josph would tremble at the thought; yet +Matthew seems to make a strong case that this was not so, and is troubling.
Amen. Knowing that makes all of life more understandable.
"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. -- Acts 15:18 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ" -- Ephesians 3:9 "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" -- Isaiah 46:10
So much for traditions. Just chuck them out the window when no one's looking.
Clearly, you are mistaken! I am merely saying that there is NO Biblical precedent for a Council of men to do away with a Biblical COMMAND - Circumcision. Again, I tell you I am Catholic and believe everything you have written so far. However, NONE of it explains the concept of Sola Scriptura. My point is to show you that it didn't exist for the Apostles of Acts 15. That's the fact and there is no arguing against this. Unless you can show me where the Bible tells other Jews that future Jews would have the power to loosen this biblical command, Sola Scriptura was simply not practiced - nor should it now.
Regards
LOL. No wonder the world gives them a hard time. 8~)
Yes, I've been surprised by some of these comments, too. I can understand why Mel Gibson is miffed. 8~)
But the miracle was Jesus, not Mary.
Absolutely correct. I was never able to understand much of the book of John until I understood this perspective. God has always called out a people. He called out Abraham. He called out Moses. He called out the children of Israel. He called out Paul. Do we see a trend?
No one does what is righteous (Rom 3). Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11). God gives us faith (Eph 2). Men become slaves to righteousness (Rom 6).
Seems clear to me.
LOL!!!
Matthew does not speak to what happened after the Nativity at all. "Eos" is a very common word that is used several times with the clear meaning "even unto, but possibly also after" by Matthew himself. In 1:25 his focus is on the miraculous birth, so he speaks on what happened before the birth. I don't see what is so troubling to you, other that late-Protestant machinations.
Yes, we do. It goes on and on, He called out Harley, He called out Dr. Eckleburg...
Then we are in agreement, for I contend that God did away with it.
Why establish churches and dismantle synanogues if it is one and the same faith? Because it is not the same faith!
The bishops have been tasked to guard the faith, by the Apostles such as Paul, no less. Recall the words he gave to Timothy and Titus, for example. The Bishops continue to take that role seriously, realizing that God is guiding their work to maintain HIS teachings, since the Church is not giving its own teachings, as Paul said to the Galatians and I have recently quoted. Certainly, when someone, even a St. Augustine, says something that doesn't "sound true", it is censured... No one is above God's passed-down tradition (teachings)
I'm not sure how it is that I only supposedly embrace Paul and the OT. :)
Unfortunately, many Protestants consider Romans and Galatians a "canon within a canon", totally disregarding much of what Jesus Christ HIMSELF said! I would highly recommend a daily dosage of the Gospels, brother. Perhaps you might disavow yourself of the "Calvinist" concept of who God is.
I didn't know he left the Church. I know I've heard him quoted before, so his earlier works are still OK?
Tertullian was one of the greatest Latin writers prior to St. Cyprian. He is proof that even such a mind as his can stray from the truth and follow heresy. His earlier writings are accepted as completely orthodox.
I can understand that a Catholic or Orthodox might not read my NIV, but from what I understand, some on your side do read the KJV. So do some on my side. So what's different? Do you mean the extra books in the "Catholic Bible"? Were those ever Canonized?
One of my Bibles is an NIV transcription. I often post from the KJV, but only because I have quick access to it on the internet through Blue Bible. I do not consider it superior to the Douay Rheims, the Vulgate. The Deuterocanonicals (those books missing in the NIV) were accepted as part of Scripture in the late 300's in three local councils, and completely accepted by an Ecumenical Council at Trent in the mid 1500's. Perhaps you would be interested to know that Wisdom and Sirach are behind some of Paul and James' work respectively. Jesus Himself alludes to both of these books, as well.
Regards
The funny thing is why don't people see this as a good thing? All those who believe have been called out and thus chosen by God.
I can think of a lot worse things...many of them involving dentists and VCR controllers.
Yes, of course. But the miracle was also the Conception and the Birth, as well as the Resurrection. And Mary was an intricate part of that Miracle. Without her contribution, the world would not have been redeemed. That's a pretty awesome task!
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