Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
The site I quoted from is a Jewish site. I presume that Jews know what they believe in better than we do! So why not quote from the horse's mouth? Are you saying they don't know what meshiach (messiah) is in Judaism? Find me one Jewish source that contradicts what my source says. Please do.
Christ did introduce a new religion, or else we would be going to synagogues instead of churches. What we believe is certainly not what the Jews believe. So, the only thing we can conclude is that the Jews were wrong for 3,000 years, including Abraham, Moses etc. Or we can say that we are wrong. But someone was/is wrong.
For thousands of years the Jews believed Moses told them the truth -- live by the Law and you will be acceptable to God (justified). Then a not such a very nice man has a religious experience on a way to Damascus and says that the Law does not make anyone just; we are justified by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ.
Are you trying to claim that the early Church had a chalcedonian (sp) concept of the Trinity?
Yes. They believed in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They believed that all three were divine in essence and that there was only one divine Being.
The entire Gospel of Jesus Christ was given to the Apostles in oral form. Judaism is based on oral tradition as well.
The whole concept reeks of a kind of monism that in no way reflects reality
Neither does raising of the dead, or Incarnation, or Virgin Birth, etc. If it makes no sense to us, we are presuming we know what reality is as well as its limits. The Romans considered Christianity from the earliest days a "dangerous superstition." They used man's capacity to understand as the measure of reality and truth. We do the same.
How much clearer does Scripture have to be to tell you that is one drastic mistake?
Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God? But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them. O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help and their shield...The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." -- Psalms 115:1-9;17"Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
"And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger: For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing." -- 2 Kings 17:11-12
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." -- 1 Peter 1:18-21"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
"Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods." -- Psalms 97:7
They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand." -- Isaiah 44:17-18"And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.
Is #5242 what you were referring to?
We do not worship icons or statues. We worship only God. We ask saints for intercessional prayers on our behalf the way we ask the same from our brethren on earth. We believe that the saints are alive in heaven, that life does not end with physical death, that the saved are with God and offer their prayers on our behalf. Asking someone to pray for you is not the same as worshiping God.
You've stated this before, but it only shows you define "justification" incorrectly.
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith." -- Romans 3:21-27"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
"That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." -- Titus 3:7
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God... Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." -- Romans 8:26-27;34"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
I have found this idea throughout this thread from your side. Just a very quick scan of this 50-post string turns up this from Alex in post 5171:
"After all, theology is secondary to liturgy; it is through liturgical union with Christ that we know the Word, Who is Christ Himself. An attempt to discover Christ through scripture alone is about as fruitful as trying to impregnate one's wife through e-mail."
This, presumably, was met with agreement by Kosta in 5185. The message is that Christ is unknowable through the scripture alone, and that only through men can anyone know Christ. Men are thus above the scripture and only these elite men decide what the scripture means for the rest of mankind. This idea is rampant on this thread and the superiority of men over scripture is clear in that men decide what the Bible means, the Bible does not.
The Bible says NOWHERE that it is ALL of the Word of God, nor does it say to ignore any Word of God outside of itself. Making such a claim refutes Sola Scriptura!
That Tradition is now part of the word of God also seems to be a new claim. What word of God is outside of the Bible? What do you think Sola Scriptura means?
It's one thing to make false accusations, but beware - from where we are standing, Protestants fare much worse in "bending" the Word of God found in Scriptures.
LOL! I think I'll take my chances on this one. :)
YOU look at justification through the lense of Luther who said that man is totally corrupt - an innovation of the 1500's.
I suppose you can assign me a pope if you want to, but I don't claim Luther or anyone else as a pope figure. Before I knew any of Luther's or Calvin's beliefs, I was already more than 80% in agreement. This doesn't surprise me in that the scripture is the base. Neither they nor I ever felt a need to re-write the scripture to satisfy another group of men's opinions.
Who exactly is changing the Bible's meaning to fit their own opinions?
Well, that would be Catholics, as the Bible's meaning MUST be changed in order to match Tradition.
If you want to know what the Bible REALLY means, find out what the first Christians thought it meant.
When I want to know what the Bible really means I try to find out what God thought it meant.
Exactly when did God vouch for the truth of every written word to be taken literally as historical or scientific truth?
Not every written word is literal, but when they are not, it is pretty clear. If I can figure out the vast majority of them, anyone can. I did not realize you were on the train of denying the historical truth of the Bible. So let me ask you what I have asked Kosta, how do you know which stories are true and which are false? Does the science of 2006 tell you, or, do you even care at all which are true?
God speaks through parables, but in the OT, He isn't allowed to?
When God spoke in parables in the NT, it was fairly obvious. It's not so easy in the OT. There could very well be examples, I'm just not aware of them.
YOU with all of our scientific knowledge at hand can't admit what is as plain as the fact that the earth is round?
The earth is round? Oh yes, that is from scripture. Thanks for reminding me. :)
Is. 40:22 : He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
And who do you ask? Yourself?
This, presumably, was met with agreement by Kosta in 5185
Kosta's approval was in reference to annalex's "An attempt to discover Christ through scripture alone is about as fruitful as trying to impregnate one's wife through e-mail."
The Divine Liturgy is the life of the Church. We can trace it back to St. James. I think I can safely agree with annalex that it predates our theology and the New Testament. It has nothing to do with men. Everything in the Church can be traced to the word of God and corroborated in the Bible. Again, the Church did not compile the New Testament so that the Reformed may discover the "true" church 15,000 years later, but because of some 200 false Gnostic "gospels" launched by Satan and his demons. The Church did not need the New Testament to exist.
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us" (2 Thes 2:15)
Make and pray for intercession are two different things dear sister in Christ. We ask of saints to pray for us.
But you are picking, which you Portestants are very good at, in order to "prove" your point:
How about:
"God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God..." (Rom 11:2)
or
"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;"(1 Tim 2:1)
or prophets maing intercession
"But if they be prophets, and if the word of the LORD be with them, let them now make intercession to the LORD of hosts, that the vessels which are left in the house of the LORD, and in the house of the king of Judah, and at Jerusalem, go not to Babylon." (Jeremiah 27:18)
or an angel making intercession
"Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years? (Zach 1:12)
To intecede means to plead on another's behalf, to act as mediator. We pray to Chirst, who is the only mediator between men and God. We ask saints to pray to Christ for us; we pray to Chirst for others, etc.
Anyone can make an intercession on anyone's behalf.
Your examples do not say anything about the Church being above the Word of God. Annalex and Kosta have correctly said that we BETTER understand the Scriptures, or more precisely, the Holy Traditions of the Apostles (which are only PARTLY the Sacred Scriptures) through the Liturgy, the acts of the Church. The Divine Liturgy is Tradition in action, it is God's heaven meeting God's earth in time. But I don't see the concept of the Church being superior to the Sacred Scripture in those posts. Perhaps you are confusing the Protestant "Word of God" to equal Scripture ALONE. Clearly, the Word of God is NOT Scripture alone. The Scripture is only part of the Word given to man. The Bible ITSELF says this in John's Gospel, for heaven's sake! The WORD of God is a person!!!
Christ is not "unknoweable" through Scripture alone. However, our experience in Christ depends on the Church's interpretation to put it into proper perspective and to bear fruit. Christ's Paschal Mystery really happened. They are objective truths. Thus, they are not subject to opinions as if EACH opinion was as good as any other. You are pushing forward the idea of Relativism, that every religion, every concept of God, is as good as another. The Scripture, in Acts, tells of the Egyptian eunich who asked a disciple of the Lord to explain the Scriptures. We use this as a guide to tell us where we are to find objective truth. It is through the community of faith where we come to qualify our experiences of Christ.
What do you think Sola Scriptura means?
That everything that Christians are to believe is found in the Bible alone. Where does the Bible give us this rule?
I wrote :It's one thing to make false accusations, but beware - from where we are standing, Protestants fare much worse in "bending" the Word of God found in Scriptures.
You said : LOL! I think I'll take my chances on this one. :)
Fine, but stop the accusations, then. Your accusations that Catholics twist Scripture is tiring, from where we stand, since we see you do it all the time. For example, Sola Scriptura - which is nowhere in the Bible. This makes it a self-refuting rule.
Before I knew any of Luther's or Calvin's beliefs, I was already more than 80% in agreement
You came to these conclusions yourself by reading the Bible without ANYONE telling you about Altar Call or Sinner's Prayer? Come on! I am willing to bet that you were open to someone's theology, which you accepted gullibly without hardly cracking the Bible open. They pointed you to a few memorized verses taken out of context, and the rest is history. You accepted someone's truth claims on what the Word of God was saying - thus, you follow traditions.
When I want to know what the Bible really means I try to find out what God thought it meant.
By consulting Luther and Calvin or other Protestants on this thread?
Well, that would be Catholics, as the Bible's meaning MUST be changed in order to match Tradition.
The Tradition came before the Bible, friend. This is common knowledge except to some Protestants.
I did not realize you were on the train of denying the historical truth of the Bible
There you go again, putting words into my posts...I said that I am FREE TO BELIEVE EITHER/OR! I never said that I am absolutely convinced that "X" didn't happen. If science leads me to think that the world was created billions of years ago, I am free to believe it without denying the inerrancy of Scriptures. You, on the other hand, MUST believe everything literally in such situations, since you consider the Bible as an idol to be worshipped and that God wouldn't inspire the Bible in an allegorical sense unless He sent a memo to you.
Does the science of 2006 tell you, or, do you even care at all which are true?
I do not discount science or historical research. But I am aware of its limitations. The Bible is the Word of God, but when science proves without doubt that the world is round, then WE must re-adjust our view of Scriptures. Scriptures do not lie, but sometimes, we misinterpret them. Clearly, when the Psalms talks about the world resting on pillars, we discount that as the knowledge of man and not the inerrant word of God's view of scientific reality.
When God spoke in parables in the NT, it was fairly obvious. It's not so easy in the OT. There could very well be examples, I'm just not aware of them.
How do you know Jesus didn't have an actual person in mind? And regarding the OT, perhaps Jonah is a parable, while Esther certainly could be a historical novel, for example. The point is that God's message is given to man, no matter the historical reality of whether Esther actually became the Queen and quashed the anti-Jewish movement in the diaspora. None of this takes away from the reality of the Christ narratives - which the Church declares as historical truths.
The earth is round? Oh yes, that is from scripture. Thanks for reminding me. :)
Wrong. The Scriptures point to the earth as resting on pillars. Is. 40 says nothing about the earth being round on a three dimensional plane, but a circle on a two-dimensional plane - the sky being a canopy in three dimensions... Are you saying that God's Word to us is that the earth is like a pancake? And Catholics have no freedom to interpret the Scriptures? LOL!!!
Regards
How exactly does posting from Romans 3 or Titus define Justification?? Clearly, these Scriptures can be taken to mean different things. The Bible is not a systematic theology book, but letters and narratives accumulated by the Church and put together.
Regards
Look to St Paul. He seems to pray for other Christians a lot and he asks for their prayers. Do you do the same thing?
Regards
As to the two pillars holding up the Hebrew concept of the cosmos, I believe you are referring to Jacinth and Boaz, who's true meaning is doubtless symbolic, and not masonary structures.
Come on Kos, you are reaching now.
"God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God..." (Rom 11:2) Paul's quote is an exact quote from the O.T. and is in the "historical present", a past action completed.
"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;"(1 Tim 2:1) was written to Timothy and the church at Ephesus for them to pray and intercede and is a command for us today.
The Psalmist said, Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.
"But if they be prophets, and if the word of the LORD be with them, let them now make intercession to the LORD of hosts, that the vessels which are left in the house of the LORD, and in the house of the king of Judah, and at Jerusalem, go not to Babylon." (Jeremiah 27:18) Jeremiah was speaking of living, breathing men who were claiming to be prohets, not dead men.
"Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years? (Zach 1:12)
Zachariah was experiencing a visitation much like John on Patmos. The angel was inquiring not petitioning or interceding in order to give Zach an answer. Much like the angel did for John.
Paul said, and I repeat it for the umpteenth time,
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
So Kos, our job is to, "Rejoice evermore", and (1Th 5:17) "Pray without ceasing", for "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man (and woman too) availeth much."
Oh but it is. It's central theme is the plan of salvation. Do you disagree with that? I believe if you do, you have just dismissed Judaism and Christianity.
No one is using another. The Church is an assembly of the faithful; we pray together for each other on earth or in heaven.
Really? And you get that from...biblical verses such as "Our Father, Wo art in Heaven...?"
The more I read Protestant expalantions the more I realize you consider Christ somehow a "different" God from the Father.
As to the two pillars holding up the Hebrew concept of the cosmos, I believe you are referring to Jacinth and Boaz, who's true meaning is doubtless symbolic, and not masonary structures
They just didn't know any more that the earth was a globe than they knew that bats were not fowl.
1000 silverlings: Oh but it is. It's central theme is the plan of salvation. Do you disagree with that? I believe if you do, you have just dismissed Judaism and Christianity
Funny, Judaism does not believe man needs to be redeemed. So, where is God's plan for slavation in the OT and if so, why don't the Jews believe it?
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