Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
FK, Agrarian is Orthodox, so he can't answer your questions, but our Latin friends can. As Agrarian stated, the Orthodox do not believe that BEV Mary can bestow grace.
Your comments about contradiction as far as Theotokos is concerned is a mix of what the Orthodox and the Catholic believe as reards to her. This is one area where the Orthodox and Catholic Churches disagree.
"And to think that priests forgiving sins made me crazy. :)"
Orthodox don't believe that priests of themselves forgive sin either! (nor do Roman Catholics so far as I know)
FK, I believe the correct word is "generated." You have to understand that even the word "Son" and "Father" are anthropomorphisms which leads to human-like images in our minds, which we are to be ever so aware of lest we create God in our own image!
But such anthropomorphisms are needed for our way of expressing the indescribable God, keeping in mind that they are limited and imperfect renditions of Perfection.
The Father is often referred to as the Wisdom and the Son the Word. Wisdom generates or begets the Word, the process being unidirectional, or one-way. The Word possesses all the attributes of the Wisdom save for the begetting, and hence the "sonship" in anthropomorphic terms.
So, the Son is not "made" but is an expression of the Wisdom. I am sure you don't refer to your words or your character as being "made" either. Your words are part of you, and so are your thoughts and your character. What you make is not you, is not part of you, as one being, but something else, another being, but of you.
Thus, God's creation is not God, but of God. That's why the Bible says "My ways are not your ways and My thoughts are not your thoughts."
FK, faith is required so that we may become Christ-like and be saved, but faith alone is not enough to make you Christ-like. That was my point. Even satan believes in God, but that belief will do nothing for a sinner unless he is willing to change, unless he asks God to help him along, and cooperates with God's will.
It's not enough to say "I want to lose weight." You must follow up your resolution with concrete steps to lose weight. That's why +James says "show me your faith". It's one thing to believe but if that belief is not coupled with concrete steps that lead you to become Chirst-like, it is an empty faith; theosis is achieved by living the faith.
"Even satan believes in God, but that belief will do nothing for a sinner unless he is willing to change, unless he asks God to help him along, and cooperates with God's will"
Thanks, Kosta. FK, that's really the point.
If I'm not mistaken, Orthodox believe simply that people should simply confess their sins to the priests but it is God that forgives those sins. Catholics OTOH believe that the "keys to the kingdom" has been given to them and their priest are in a position to forgive sins (whatever you bind on earth shall be...).
What I pointed you to was a summary of a plethora of Bible verses highlighting how you know you are saved. I thought that was easier than simply typing them all out.
But let me summarize: 1) God's grace saves us, 2) God's faith keeps us. If you cannot examine yourself and KNOW you are a Christian, then there are larger issues. If you KNOW you are a Christian, then you should be trusting God to keep you and see you through.
Yes, you have correctly stated what Orthodoxy teaches. I was of the understanding that the Latins believed the same thing. Maybe Jo or Alex can enlighten us.
That is not a dogmatically defined teaching of the Catholic Church. This is based, however, on a consistent teaching that Mary is the conduit of grace through whom Christ grants all graces. Mary HERSELF doesn't possess God-like abilities in of herself. As she was the means and instrument by which God gave us the greatest of graces, Jesus Christ, we believe that God continues to act in such manner in this new dispensation to continue to grant mankind grace and specifically, His Church, "through" Mary. We regard Mary as a symbol of the Church (Rev 12, for example) and just as the Church dispenses Christ's redemptive graces to us, we believe that Mary is the co-metiatrix of Christ's graces. If Jesus is the Head and we are the Body of Christ, then Mary would be the Neck...
This is a teaching that goes back at least 1500 years - but has not been infallibly defined yet. By the way, the Protoevangelism of James is not considered Scripture, so it would be difficult to base infallible beliefs upon it (that Mary didn't receive special graces until she was three).
What I'm leading to is that if Mary was always subject to sin, but never chose to even as a child, then how could that not be the act of God controlling her?
God gave Mary a singular grace that allowed her to freely avoid sin. By being conceived immaculately, she was born without concupiscence. Thus, she, like Christ, could not be tempted from within - only from without (Satan). Being that Mary, the Woman of Gen 3:15, was in complete enimity with the devil, it doesn't seem possible that God would even ALLOW Mary to sin. He provided for His greatest creation, fear not...Just because a person has been given such a grace - to be so enlightened to NOT choose sin - doesn't make her free will non-existent.
Regards
I didn't disagree with that. I only said that "begotten" doesn't refer to the Incarnation. The Father DOES "cause" the Son to exist. But this is outside of time. Thus, there is not a time when the Son does not exist that the Father does exist. Begotten means that the Logos, the Wisdom of the Father, was brought into existence out of the essence of the Father. The Logos is "God from God, as Light from Light, true God from true God". The Logos was begotten, not created. Created refers to something in time and generally does not refer to a COMPLETE and TOTAL passing of all qualities to the other. Look carefully at the Creed - Light from light...
Regards
"God is also Father, being ever unbegotten, for He was born of no one, but hath begotten His co-eternal Son: God is likewise Son, being always with the Father, born of the Father timelessly, everlastingly, without flux or passion, or separation from Him. God is also Holy Spirit, being sanctifying power, subsistential, proceeding from the Father without separation, and resting in the Son, identical in essence with Father and Son." [from: The Exact Exposition of Orthodox Faith]
Agree. The Father is the source of the Son and the Spirit. The Father is unbegotten, thus, we call Him the Father, who generates eternally the Son. A mystery in itself.
Regards
yes, plethora is a good word for that post!
But let me summarize: 1) God's grace saves us, 2) God's faith keeps us. If you cannot examine yourself and KNOW you are a Christian, then there are larger issues. If you KNOW you are a Christian, then you should be trusting God to keep you and see you through.
That is presuming one is of the elect, the "us" in your above summary. We can examine ourselves - but we do this subjectively. Really, how many people who call themselves "Christian" are going to say "well, perhaps I am not of the elect"? At least from Protestants whom I have talked with, I don't get that indication. There seems to be a certainty that is based totally on subjective opinion. There is no objective proof, since they consider nothing infallible. Sure, the Bible is, but its interpretations are not. And frankly, I don't find any of our names in there as being of the elect. Thus, each person can only HOPE they are of the elect. We can have faith that we are - and we will have evidence that we are. But this doesn't make it so. Certainly, the Pharisees THOUGHT they were of the elect of God, as well. They had external works they could point to and say "see, I am of the elect of God".
And when IF, just imagine, WHEN IF, God actually expects us to eat His flesh and drink His blood to have life eternal? What happens then? WHEN IF this is a REQUIREMENT to enter the Kingdom?
Thus, we can't rely on our OWN subjective opinions to determine our own future destiny. Only God knows where we will end up. From our point of view, we do not have absolute assurance.
Regards
Catholics believe that the priest acts "in the person of Christ" whenever the priest celebrates a sacrament. Thus, in Reconciliation, the priest has been given the power to visibly forgive sins - although it is Christ working through those visible signs to forgive sins. The priest is an "ambassador" of Christ, given this power from the original Apostles, whom Christ commissioned to forgive sins.
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: 2Cor 5:17-20
Regards
Talk about throwing red meat to the loyal opposition! :) Indeed, what would have happened if the Jews and Romans had not used their free will to kill Jesus? I don't know, maybe, perhaps, THE ENTIRE DOWNFALL OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH! :) OT prophecy would have been destroyed, and Jesus' own words would have made Him a liar.
My red meat argument would then be that either Jesus was super duper lucky for things to turn out the way they did in order to accomplish what the Father sent Him to do, OR, maybe it's possible that God actually had a hand in arranging that all the necessary things took place. Perhaps God was really in control of the entire situation all along. Does God gamble on His plan, or does He ensure it?
I don't think that it is safe to say that Christ's pre-Resurrectional body was incapable of corruption -- it obviously wasn't. He suffered thirst and hunger, he suffered pain, he bled, he sweated. None of these things are characteristics of a glorified body.
So, then all of mankind is thankful that Jesus made the free will decision to not sin? Jesus could have sinned, but lucky for us He didn't?
[About Jesus on the cross:] In short, Christ could have chosen, so to speak to heal himself and continue to do so indefinitely. In that sense, Christ did voluntarily die, and the Scripture says that he gave up his spirit.
Now you're talking! :) The only addition I would make is to say that in EVERY sense Christ did voluntarily die.
The Theotokos didn't sin, and yet suffered the effects of "original sin" -- she grew old and died. I've not heard it said one way or another whether the Orthodox Church believes that Christ was born with "original sin" in that sense -- i.e. the tendency to death and corruption.
From my side, part of the answer would be that Jesus was never subject to growing old and dying of natural causes. He never had a tendency toward death and corruption. His mission and its accomplishment were perfect and complete from the beginning of time.
From my side, God did not rely on choices by men. Through withholding of protection and the causing of good, God's perfect plan was accomplished then, just as it is accomplished now.
The point it would seem to me is who gives man the capability to ask God for help rather than "cooperation". I would hope that we would all agree that evil men have no choice but to cooperate with God's will. Balaam spoke with the angels of God and prophesied in His name. One could say that Balaam cooperated with God. Yet Balaam never cried out for mercy from God. Belshazzar defiled the sacred things of God and saw the writing on the wall. One could say he was a "believer" but never asked for God's mercy.
The bottom line is we cannot "cooperate" unless God gives us the capability to cooperate. If God in His mercy gives us the capacity to cooperate, then we will have the desire and will to cooperate.
"Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:34-36
When our Lord Jesus said to the woman pouring oil on His feet and wiping it with her hair:
How about the paralytic when our Lord Jesus said,
True believers can search their hearts and KNOW they are of God. All you have to do is look at how you've lived your life in the past and compare it to how you are living now if you want a yardstick. But measuring yourself is not always a good idea (except examining to see if your in the faith). God calls all Christians to specific tasks. Sometimes God's grace may take years and years to manifest itself.
You feel one must be "doing things that are of God" to show God how much you love Him. I believe one should simply sit at the feet of Christ and God will work through us for His good pleasure. You are the Martha. I'm the Mary.
I believe that, as usual, Jo Kus correctly described the Catholic theology regarding Mary in relations with grace in his 2949, and in forgiveness of sins by priests in his 2,953.
"Your faith has saved you; go in peace" Luke 7:50
Was she saved or did she have to continue to "cooperate" with God throughout her life?
The Scripture doesn't go on to tell us what happened with her in the end. We presume that she "persevered". Just because someone is "saved" or "healed" doesn't mean they will not subsequently get sick again and require the Lord's Healing touch again! Nowhere does Jesus make this "salvation" a permanent issue - thus, he continuously talks about perseverance.
True believers can search their hearts and KNOW they are of God. All you have to do is look at how you've lived your life in the past and compare it to how you are living now if you want a yardstick. But measuring yourself is not always a good idea (except examining to see if your in the faith). God calls all Christians to specific tasks. Sometimes God's grace may take years and years to manifest itself.
True believers is a relative term! Are we speaking from OUR point of view or God's point of view? Heretics, unfortunately, think THEY are true believers. I am sure that Arians, Jansenists, and Adoptionists all believed that they had interpreted the Scriptures and Traditions faithfully. Thus, this is an entirely subjective idea that has no objective proof that you or I AM of the elect! As you note, measuring ourselves against GOD'S standards will depend on OUR interpretation of GOD'S standards.
You feel one must be "doing things that are of God" to show God how much you love Him. I believe one should simply sit at the feet of Christ and God will work through us for His good pleasure. You are the Martha. I'm the Mary.
I get that a lot! :-)
Don't forget that we know that it is God who works within us the will and desire to do His will. Scripture clearly points out BOTH aspects of approaching the Lord. Neither Martha or Mary are condemned by the Lord. Note the story of the Good Samaritan comes directly before the Lord's meeting at Martha and Mary's house that you describe. There certainly is an ethical sense to Christianity, wouldn't you agree?
Regards
Very good article, thank you Harley! Not quite the one, big, happy family that some have portrayed. It sounds like this Augustine fellow had a lot of potential. I'm assuming that his views as expressed in the article were before he "took it all back" and converted to modern day Catholicism. :)
I would agree that God does not speak to us in the same way He did to the early prophets, but at the same time I would say that God is still very active in our lives, and is not just a bystander. I believe that God really does lead us.
Yes, the issue of infant baptism is important doctrinally, but for me it really isn't a life or death issue. I allowed both of my children to be baptized as infants in other Protestant churches for family reasons. I knew it didn't really "mean" much, but I didn't see any harm in it. The ceremonies were very nice. Both of them have since been baptized as believers.
So God only protected the first generation from error?
In a word, YES. :)
He left the Church to fend for themselves for the last 1900 years?
No, I don't say that God abandoned anyone. I say He doesn't abandon us. The critical issue is infallibility. You have told me many times that any individual Father or other member of the hierarchy is capable of error on his own, but that the pack is always right. This is what I struggle with in accepting. That, and scriptural interpretation. :)
... Overeating is not necessarily a mortal sin, although it is an action of gluttony - and a disregard for temperance. The Church and our conscience generally judges what is a mortal sin.
Thanks for the clarification.
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