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To: Forest Keeper; Agrarian; kosta50; Kolokotronis; annalex
MARY BESTOWS GRACE!? And to think that priests forgiving sins made me crazy. :) I thought you prayed to Mary for a prayer, not to be given something from her on her own authority.

That is not a dogmatically defined teaching of the Catholic Church. This is based, however, on a consistent teaching that Mary is the conduit of grace through whom Christ grants all graces. Mary HERSELF doesn't possess God-like abilities in of herself. As she was the means and instrument by which God gave us the greatest of graces, Jesus Christ, we believe that God continues to act in such manner in this new dispensation to continue to grant mankind grace and specifically, His Church, "through" Mary. We regard Mary as a symbol of the Church (Rev 12, for example) and just as the Church dispenses Christ's redemptive graces to us, we believe that Mary is the co-metiatrix of Christ's graces. If Jesus is the Head and we are the Body of Christ, then Mary would be the Neck...

This is a teaching that goes back at least 1500 years - but has not been infallibly defined yet. By the way, the Protoevangelism of James is not considered Scripture, so it would be difficult to base infallible beliefs upon it (that Mary didn't receive special graces until she was three).

What I'm leading to is that if Mary was always subject to sin, but never chose to even as a child, then how could that not be the act of God controlling her?

God gave Mary a singular grace that allowed her to freely avoid sin. By being conceived immaculately, she was born without concupiscence. Thus, she, like Christ, could not be tempted from within - only from without (Satan). Being that Mary, the Woman of Gen 3:15, was in complete enimity with the devil, it doesn't seem possible that God would even ALLOW Mary to sin. He provided for His greatest creation, fear not...Just because a person has been given such a grace - to be so enlightened to NOT choose sin - doesn't make her free will non-existent.

Regards

2,949 posted on 02/23/2006 4:25:00 AM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus; Agrarian
Mary HERSELF doesn't possess God-like abilities in of herself.

I am VERY glad to hear that! :)

... just as the Church dispenses Christ's redemptive graces to us, we believe that Mary is the co-metiatrix of Christ's graces. If Jesus is the Head and we are the Body of Christ, then Mary would be the Neck...

OK, but can Mary forgive sin like a priest can? I am zooming in on what the correct prayer is to Mary. Is the prayer to Mary in a worship sense so that she will procure God's graces and then pass them along, or is the prayer to Mary for Mary's prayer to God to pass the graces through her? I still haven't figured out why all the middlemen? :)

By the way, the Protoevangelism of James is not considered Scripture, so it would be difficult to base infallible beliefs upon it (that Mary didn't receive special graces until she was three).

I'm not sure I understand you. By "scripture" do you mean the Bible? I ask because you appear to hint that infallible tradition is based on scripture, when I know that at least some tradition is not really "based" in scripture, such as infant baptism.

Being that Mary, the Woman of Gen 3:15, was in complete enmity with the devil, it doesn't seem possible that God would even ALLOW Mary to sin.

What? MARY is the woman of Gen. 3:15? I can't buy that. Let's look at the section:

Gen. 3:15-17a : 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." 16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." 17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' ...

If Mary is the woman in 15, then who is the woman in 16? Are you saying that God switches from Mary to Eve in one verse? In that case, who is Adam really supposed to be in 17? :) This is another perfect example of interpretation being made to conform the Bible to extra-Biblical teaching. I can certainly take an honest disagreement on the meaning of a verse, but this just isn't reasonable.

3,009 posted on 02/24/2006 10:22:19 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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