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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Look, as a Calvinist you must understand that the notion of free will, etc. is almost the whole of your theological life. (I good-naturedly jest, but you get the point). It is not so with myself--for whom it is only a small subset of the spiritual life and one which I will fully admit I have not researched very well. I'm not a theologian, I'm not up on all the nuances of free will vs. sovereignty, Calvin vs. Rome, Molina and the Jesuits vs. Thomas and the Dominicans.

But I do know this. I know with a certainty that is far deeper than theological argumentation that I have free will. Not because I am higher than God, but precisely because God has given me that choice to make.

There was no primacy attached my ordering of free will and then God's sovereignty. I started with the will because that is what you denied. Of course, God's sovereignty is first and foremost before anything else, and our free will only proceeds from it. And against your idea that our nature was totally destroyed by the Fall, surely you know that is not the Catholic faith, and this was one of the strong bones of contention between we and the Reformers. Our nature was created good, just as the angels were created good. That nature was then wounded by the Fall but not totally corrupted or destroyed. I agree with you that man needs grace to turn from sin to God, but when you deny that man has any natural virtue to him, you contradict Scripture and you go against the Christian faith. St. Paul himself said that the Gentiles "had the law written in their own hearts".

And on damnation, it itself is a mercy. The soul that hates God to that extent cannot abide to be in His Holy Presence. To stand before God black with sin is a greater torture than to be separated from Him forever. Hence God allows us, madness as it is, to even deny his sovereignty.

97 posted on 12/30/2005 6:09:56 AM PST by Claud
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To: Claud
Return to Scripture and see what your definitions lack. Man was not bruised by the Fall. Like Lazarus, man is spiritually dead to God. Only the regenerating hand of God can lift the corpse from death and turn his fallen will toward righteousness.

"As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." -- Romans 3:10, 11, 12

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." -- Romans 3:21-24

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" -- Jeremiah 17:9

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." -- Isaiah 64:6

Neither the Jews nor the Gentiles could not keep the law perfectly. But God by His mercy sent a Savior to suffer and die for the sins of the elect, the only payment equal to the error.

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." -- 1 Corinthians 1:21-24

The law written on the hearts of the Gentiles is able to save them exactly as the law the Jews strove to keep -- not at all.

Only God's grace saves anyone. To those who hear the Gospel, faith in Christ is the only salvation.

I am surprised the Roman Catholic view of Original Sin has been so watered down as for you to say it is merely a "wound." This wasn't always the case with Rome. They used to get that one right. 8~)

109 posted on 12/30/2005 10:56:35 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (an ambassador in bonds)
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