Protestants and the Pope

Westminster Seminary California ^ | July/August 2005 | W. Robert Godfrey

[topcat54]

The death of Pope John Paul II and the election of Pope Benedict XVI have drawn great attention to the papacy in recent months. Such intense interest is remarkable. Much of it relates to the personality and accomplishments of John Paul II. He was a man of great courage and contributed significantly to the collapse of communism in eastern Europe.

Part of the interest also results from the powerful images that Rome can offer television cameras. Some of the greatest art and architecture of western civilization serve as a backdrop for elaborate rituals performed by gloriously clad clerics.

Part of the appeal for many—including non-Roman Catholics—is the sense of continuity and certainty provided by the institution of the papacy. The office of the pope connects us with the past, with a time of greater Christian presence and influence at all levels of society and culture in the west. It also speaks of certain moral standards defended against the relativism of our times.

[MarMema]

Nice post. Thanks!

[Mershon]

I don't suppose you have ever read what the Church officially teaches about evolution in its last authoritative pronouncement? Try Humani Generis, by Pope Pius XII. Going directly to the Church rather than through the media outlets, which tend to get translations wrong, and misrepresent nearly every Church issue, is a much better way of actually understanding it.

[Jaded]

Is it your position that the world will end in 2007 and only a few of you will be 'raptured'? Is it also your position that the earth has only been in existence for 6000 years?

Have a nice day.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

His word will accomplish what He means it to accomplish

Amen. Scripture is the means by which God has chosen to dispense His saving grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I suppose He could do it some other way, but so far, He hasn't.

"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." -- John 5: 22-24.

Thus you're correct, IOTN, when you reference the Great Commission where Jesus instructed all Christians to preach the word of God to all nations and races so that all whom God has given to Christ will be brought home.

Salvation's not a game of chance. All whom Christ was sent to redeem will be redeemed. God is not surprised by any face He sees in heaven.

[Petronski]

Wow. Based on that, I'd say Mike Gendron is a no-good SOB. That's some hard-core hate he's spewing there.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

At the present time, the modern pre-mil dispensationalists are a bigger threat to the reformed churches than are the followers of the Bishop of Rome.

While I disagree mightily with pre-mil dispensationalists, what Protestant has killed Christians?

George Washington refused to put the crown on his head.

[AlaninSA]

Are you trying to be obnoxious?

Try educating yourself before spewing the garbage you hear at whatever "Community" church you attend. Of course, like many nutcase fundies who hate Catholics, you're likely to never share what cultish sect to which you belong.

Such courage from the wacko fundie crowd...

[xzins]

At the present time, the modern pre-mil dispensationalists are a bigger threat to the reformed churches than are the followers of the Bishop of Rome.

Dan, thought you'd enjoy a good laugh today. LOL!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

wacko fundie crowd

I did not know the Chicago Tribune is part of the "wacko fundie crowd."

Joseph Medill and Col. McCormick must be spinning in their graves.

[PAR35]

I haven't seen any Catholic priests trying to infiltrate reformed churches to foment division and dissension. The same can't be said for dispensationalists.

[xzins]

Rotflol!

Stop it; yer killin' me!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You've got a really good point and I agree about the deceptive infiltration. Nothing's done by chance; it's all coordinated. The greatest threat to man's control over other men is the Reformed faith which alone kneels to none but Christ.

But it remains true that no dispy/Arminian/seeker-sensitive Christian has killed other Christians in the name of the one, true faith.

There are the swords of men, and then there is the sword of God...

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak." -- Eph. 6:12-20

[Claud]

IOTN, I happen to have read pretty extensively on the Church and evolution, including what St. Augustine and St. Basil said in the first few centuries. The Catholic *absolutely* takes Genesis literally, and has been very very careful about it precisely because it is such a challenging and difficult text. I got nothing against literalists, but don't go making your private interpretation of Genesis the measure of orthodoxy for everyone, especially if you haven't been in on the ground floor of 2000 years of exegesis. If Augustine could write a book about Genesis and say that he was asking more questions than he was answering, I'm seriously doubtful that you or anyone else on this forum can have it nailed down to a tee.

I am well familiar with that JPII quote you mention, and there was some dispute about what he meant by the phrase "more than a hypothesis" as it was delivered in French (plus qu'un hypothesis" and the meaning was somewhat vague.

Anyhow, that was a private statement of the Pope's and had nothing whatever to do with official magisterial teaching, for which, as Mershon correctly pointed out, Humani Generis is still the most important document. HUmani Generis allows for the possibility that evolution may have produced the human body, but rejects any notion that it proceeded without God, and says that the soul cannot have arisen by such processes but is immediately created at conception.

[tiki]

Not rage and venom but disgust at ignorant people telling us how and what we believe. How can anyone have a reasoned argument with someone so filled with misconceptions and won't even admit to it.

When you understand Catholicism and not your own personal concept of Catholicism we could dialogue. Otherwise, it really is, "throwing pearls before swine."

[xzins]

You've got a really good point...

Sure, and space aliens are prime suspects in border crossings. LOL.

[Claud]

They are not beyond hope of the spirit operating in them, they are beyond hope of somehow generating faith all on their own - which is what Graham is suggesting.

That is not at all what Graham is suggesting, and you are ending up agreeing with his position! He said that people in whom the Spirit is operating--may possibly be saved by responding to those operations, but always saved by and through Christ. He is not a Pelagian, and neither are we.

The point is, they cannot "choose" to seek Christ, unless God is pleased to reveal it to them.

And no one says otherwise...but who is anyone to say that God does not please to reveal it--in some way--to those who are outside the Church? Will you tie the hands of the Almighty now?

If someone responds to the graces they are given, the possibility of salvation is there: not through their own merits of course, but through the merits of Christ.

Don't forget, my friend, it's the Catholic Church who still hold tenaciously to the famous dogma "Outside of the Church there is no salvation". Properly interpreted of course. :)

[PAR35]

The Catholics haven't attacked our church.

We do, however, have Dallas Seminary students and graduates (and an occasional faculty member) who join and are always willing to volunteer to teach Sunday School classes. When questioned, they claim DTS has changed in what it teaches (but other DTS grads don't seem to have trouble getting jobs at dispensationalist Bible churches).

If you want to see a real dispensationalist success story with these kinds of tactics, look at Northwest Bible Church (formerly Northwest Presbyterian Church) in Dallas.

For a more recent example, read up on Forest Hills Church (formerly Forest Hills (Evangelical) Presbyterian. Their dispensationalist oriented preacher led that 2000 member church out of the EPC to independency. http://www.layman.org/layman/news/2005-news/presbyterian-congregation-leaves.htm

Come on. Be honest. How big a threat is the Catholic church to your congregation? Unless you live in Ulster, it isn't going to be there. Now how big a threat are the dispensationalists?

[jboot]

We do, however, have Dallas Seminary students and graduates (and an occasional faculty member) who join and are always willing to volunteer to teach Sunday School classes. When questioned, they claim DTS has changed in what it teaches (but other DTS grads don't seem to have trouble getting jobs at dispensationalist Bible churches).

Amazing. We had one of these fellows in our church, which already leans pretrib/premil-but not far enough, apparently. He recently left after a tiff with the pastor.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

See Par35's post 77. I agree with it completely.

The voices against faith alone by God's grace alone through Christ's work alone for God's glory alone via Scripture alone have always been united (albeit surreptitiously) in their belief that they can effectuate their own salvation.

"Divide and conquer" is still the method of choice to dismantle a movement or set of beliefs. The Counter Reformation never ended.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You've seen them, too? 8~)