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To: NYer
In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Along with your other comments this is some of the most screwed up theology I've ever seen!

You're taking the authority of Christ to forgive sins and the Apostles annoitings and delegating them to men that are not only NOT direct desendants, as you claim, but do not even have a lineage.

If this is the case why did Christ have to die if any man who goes to seminary can forgive sins? This is so bogus and absolutely unscriptural it boaders on the wistful!

Can you not even appear to put some of those scriptures in context? Let's just concentrate on one at a time:


Matt. 9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled and glorified God, which had given such power unto men?
- this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to "men."

It does? How? Christ healed the man, what is the scripture referring to, Forgiveness of sin, healing, or both? Look at the context. Read Matt:9:1-8, the whole context.

64 posted on 12/26/2005 3:27:59 PM PST by sirchtruth (Words Mean Things...)
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To: sirchtruth
Along with your other comments this is some of the most screwed up theology I've ever seen!

For a while there, I thought you might be a learned christian, familiar with the Bible, the Early Church Fathers and Holy Scripture. My apologies for the mistake.

If you don't mind my asking, to which denomination, if any, do you belong? How old is your Church?

69 posted on 12/26/2005 4:04:49 PM PST by NYer ("Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: sirchtruth
Matthew
Chapter 9
1
1 He entered a boat, made the crossing, and came into his own town.
2
And there people brought to him a paralytic lying on a stretcher. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Courage, child, your sins are forgiven."
3
At that, some of the scribes 2 said to themselves, "This man is blaspheming."
4
Jesus knew what they were thinking, and said, "Why do you harbor evil thoughts?
5
Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'?
6
3 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" --he then said to the paralytic, "Rise, pick up your stretcher, and go home."
7
He rose and went home.
8
4 When the crowds saw this they were struck with awe and glorified God who had given such authority to human beings.

What is it that everyone present witnessed that day? They saw Jesus, the carpenter's son, forgive a man's sins. The Pharisees were shocked. This was blasphemy because only God can forgive sins. Jesus read their thoughts and commented that the power to forgive sins had been given him by the authority of God.

To whom did Jesus pass this authority?

Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

apostles.

John 16:14-15 - what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated.

John 17:18; 20:21 - as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority.

What did the apostles do with this authority?

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority.

Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own."

Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

If this is the case why did Christ have to die if any man who goes to seminary can forgive sins?

Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty.

We can lose salvation through our own free will.

Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

For these reasons, Christ instituted the Sacrament of Reconciliation so that those who drift away may return. He did this, as noted above, by passing His authority to forgive sins, to the Apostles and they passed it on through the laying on of hands, to their successors.


93 posted on 12/26/2005 11:55:54 PM PST by NYer ("Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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