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To: gbcdoj
St. Paul is clear: the justice of the law, "Cursed is every one, that abideth not in all things, which are written in the book of the law to do them. ...

This is where you completely miss the point. We are no longer under the LAW, we are under God's grace. There is NOTHING, no law, no sacrement, no burden we carry any longer. It is Christ which unburnders us from ALL this sin. If you're living your life based on the fact that you better be GOOD enough to get into heaven then you are living a lie. Paul is talking about a relationship with the FATHER. You can not sin and have a GOOD relationship with him. But that does not mean he is no longer your FATHER. Once you become an INHERITED son or daughter, that's it, there is no going back. There is no letting go by God.

You made a choice to accept Christ as Lord and He accepted you and HE does not let go of his promise even if you do!!!!

For all your talk about Scripture, you haven't given a single verse which says that the faithful cannot fall away and be lost.

The problem with quoting scripture always turns into a pissing match which I refuse to partake. What am I going to quote YOU anyways that you don't already know? By me quoting you a certain scripture is that gonna make you see something new? You know what God's word says, I just don't think you're applying it correctly.

For example: John 3:16, you quoted it, and then said: That's just as valid an argument, and gives an equally wrong conclusion.

What's ironinc is YOU use some of the scripture I would have quoted to back my argument, so therefore I don't feel it's neccessary to pitch to someone who knows it already. I might quote here or there just to reiterate my point occasionally.

...then any Christian who does so after being justified does exactly that: he dies in spirit, and falls from grace.

No, he dies in his relationship with God. Christ gave eternal life when you first accept him! You can not lose "eternal" life, or it was never eternal in the first place! Look at John 10:9

I am the door: by me if any man enter in he shall be saved and he shall go IN and OUT and find pasture.

What do you think IN and OUT means?

Search the logical conclusion of what you're trying to prove. Christ said he promises God will not let anyone snatch you from his or God's hand. You're putting an "UNLESS" in there and adding to scripture. You're living according to the LAW, which we are no longer under.

152 posted on 01/01/2006 6:13:45 AM PST by sirchtruth (Words Mean Things...)
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To: sirchtruth
Look, you're saying a lot, but your arguments are just not founded in divine revelation. It is repeatedly and explicitly stated in Scripture that some who have believed in God will fall away, or have already fallen away, and that no one can be perfectly confident that he is among those predestined to glory (see 1 Cor. 10:12). You are saying that none of that is true.

St. Paul is absolutely clear, and I don't see how you can misread him. You seem to concede that it is possible for one who has been justified to partially fall away if he "lives according to the flesh" (see Rom. 8:13). You meet my statement that such a one "dies in spirit, and falls away from grace" by saying No, he dies in his relationship with God. But how in the world is he on the path to salvation if his relationship to God is dead? St. Paul says "they who are in the flesh, cannot please God" (Rom. 8:8) and we know that pleasing God is a sine qua non of final glorification (see Rom. 2:6-16; also Heb. 11:6). Likewise, the Apostle writes: "you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body indeed is dead, because of sin; but the spirit liveth, because of justification." (Rom 8:9-10) Now a clear implication here is that the spirit does not live "because of justification" in those who have not the Spirit of Christ, and are not his. But justification is a necessary precursor of final glorification (see Rom. 8:30).

You don't seem to understand St. John 10:9. The sheep who go out through Christ to pasture are not sinning. There's nothing wrong with doing that, anymore than there's anything wrong with real sheep being let out to pasture.

As I said before, eternal life is "eternal" because it is God's own life: St. Peter says that we become partakers of the divine nature! The adjective "eternal" does not mean that it is impossible for us to lose while in the state of a wayfarer.

Christ said he promises God will not let anyone snatch you from his or God's hand

No, he never said that.

"And they shall never perish:" you may hear the undertone, as if He had said to them, Ye shall perish for ever, because ye are not of my sheep. "No one shall pluck them out of my hand." Give still greater heed to this: "That which my Father gave me is greater than all." What can the wolf do? What can the thief and the robber? They destroy none but those predestined to destruction. But of those sheep of which the apostle says, "The Lord knoweth them that are His;" and "Whom He did foreknow, them He also did predestinate; and whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified;" --there is none of such sheep as these that the wolf seizes, or the thief steals, or the robber slays. He, who knows what He gave for them, is sure of their number. And it is this that He says: "No one shall pluck them out of my hand;" and in reference also to the Father, "That which my Father gave me is greater than all." (St. Augustine, Tractate 48 on the Gospel of St. John, no. 6)

153 posted on 01/01/2006 10:53:36 AM PST by gbcdoj (Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us Jud 8:17)
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