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To: redgolum
On one hand, if you say that we all have 100% free will, then all of creation was a crap shoot. If we say that there is 100% double predestination, then we are little better then automatons acting out our fate. Most Christians believe we fall somewhere in the middle.

I know this particular post is about logic but I don't understand that. Could you expand on it a little bit for the less gifted?

On one hand, if you say that we all have 100% free will, then all of creation was a crap shoot.

I don't see the connection here. First of all, what is 100% free will? Secondly, how does the presence or absence of human free will affect creation one way or the other?

If we say that there is 100% double predestination, then we are little better then automatons acting out our fate.

What in the heck is double predestination? Is 100% of double predestination 200% predestination? Does that mean we do it once and then go back and do it again. If so, why not just call it reincarnation? :-)

Seems to me that predestination, period, leaves us not necessarily as automations but creatures whose destination is predetermined and the journey there is up to us. Regardless, the outcome is fixed. We can eat, drink, and be merry and go to Heaven if that is predetermined, or we can be saints and go to Hell. Is life a "Whatever floats your boat" deal?

132 posted on 12/19/2005 11:47:30 AM PST by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all that needs to be done needs to be done by the government.)
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
I know this particular post is about logic but I don't understand that. Could you expand on it a little bit for the less gifted?

I will try, but I am not the best at communicating these things some times!

What I meant about 100% free will is that if that were try, they man can in effect "trump" God. If you are a Christian and believe in Christ and the fulfillment of Old Testament Prophecy, then God has to have some hand in shaping world events in the grand scale, and individual will in the small scale. Otherwise, for instance, Joseph could have divorced Mary, and had her stoned. Which would have deprived the human race of salvation.

The opposite extreme is that all of our actions and decisions have been pre programed by God. We are only programs acting out our commands, and have no control what so ever of what we do. That is a hard sell (and some try to do it) for it implies that we are not really responsible for our sins, for we are only doing what we were destined to do. Some cultures have this type of fatalism, and it is pretty depressing.

Double predestination is the view that God chooses those who will go to Heaven and Hell, and has chosen before creation. In other words, the game is rigged on both ends. Single predestination is when God opens our hearts to receive Him, but then we have the choice to reject or accept His grace.

Hope this helped somewhat. I will try to be more clear later if you need me to.

154 posted on 12/19/2005 1:53:18 PM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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