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To: NYer
Well...he's flat out wrong.

That priest apparently hasn't read his Bible. Is he even Catholic? Let's just examine this statement:

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,

and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?

So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?

For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Of course, many will accuse us Catholics of not knowing our Bible...but this comes from Scripture. I'll not bother to cite the reference.

4 posted on 12/17/2005 7:18:55 AM PST by AlaninSA (It's ONE NATION UNDER GOD...brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: AlaninSA
In Chapter 5 of the Gospel of Matthew Jesus said: "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' [ignoramus?] will be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift."
6 posted on 12/17/2005 7:29:38 AM PST by 57chevypreterist (Remember, your orthodoxy was once heresy.)
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To: AlaninSA

No, he is quite right. But the Catholic faith is that the two cannot be separated; There is no Faith vs. Works dichotomy; the two go hand in hand. If the Faith does not produce Works, it is not true Faith; if Works are performed without Faith, no good may come from them.


54 posted on 12/17/2005 10:14:13 AM PST by dangus
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To: AlaninSA; Nihil Obstat; Salvation; StAthanasiustheGreat; Desdemona; Jaded
A question for all of you (one that has plagued me for 40+ years) ... topic related.

My adoptive father's parents were both Lutherans. Neither was practicing. When their son was born, they never bothered to baptize him, leaving the decision up to him when he grew up and matured.

On his journey through life, he met my Catholic mother and married her. At the time, I was 8 years old, and the Catholic Church insisted that he promise to raise me in my faith. He agreed and held to his word throughout my life. Over the years, he attended Christmas and Easter Mass. He was there for me when I made my Confirmation. I prayed for him; yet he never professed any faith.

At one point in his professional career, a colleague whom he respected, became a Baptist minister. He considered joining the Baptist Church but never did.

He is a good man and probably far more charitable than most christians I know. He is very generous with Catholic charitable organizations, giving to the Little Sisters of the Poor and a local home for unwed mothers. When his mother died 3 years ago, she left all her worldly belongings to the Lutheran Church that she never attended. Her son honored those wishes. (It came as a surprise to us all that there were different congregations within the Lutheran Church and my father chose the more conservative one). He even asked the Lutheran minister to say some prayers at my grandmother's wake.

For Christmas last year, at my father's request , my mother gave him a Bible. Though Catholic, my mother respected the fact that her husband's parents had been Lutheran and gave him a KJV Bible. I doubt that he has read it but don't know for sure.

I have related this story for your edification and input. I'm not even sure what my father actually believes. He is a perfectionist and has often been called to task on his desire to have everything in order. Over the years, he has often said: "God created only one perfect man and the world crucified him".

This situation has plagued me since childhood. I introduced my father to my pastor who enthralled him with his fluency in German. Dad was most impressed! But he has never returned to my parish, citing physical ailments that, because of his 'perfection', prevent him from standing, kneeling, etc. Now, even my mother has stopped attending Mass at her RC parish so as not to leave Dad home alone. They have been together for nearly 50 years. When one suffers, both do.

So I ask you ... justification by works without baptism? Justification by belief + works without baptism? Where does my dad stand? My pastor has given me his response; what is yours?

70 posted on 12/17/2005 5:11:20 PM PST by NYer ("Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: AlaninSA
Well...he's flat out wrong.

That priest apparently hasn't read his Bible. Is he even Catholic? Let's just examine this statement:

The headline is wrong -dig deeper and one will see that the actual statements are far different than the headline which was penned by a USCCB writer...

NOTE: Copyright (c) 2005 Catholic News Service/U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops

72 posted on 12/17/2005 6:33:12 PM PST by DBeers (†)
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