Posted on 12/13/2005 11:56:25 AM PST by badabing98
In my parish, before the advent of altar girls the boys all served eagerly and would argue over whose turn it was, argue because they wanted to be the ones. Since we started altar girls only one boy is positive and volunteers to take the place of his reluctant fellows. And only a couple of the girls do it eagerly though none of the girls try to argue their way out of it on Sunday as the boys do. There is nothing distinguishing about it any more.
It was an explicit attempt at this byu the feminists in and outside of the church. JP2 used the feminization of altar service to end that buzz by making it a dead end thing.
Gotta watch your spelling on this one. "Alterboys" has some possible connotations that "altarboys" does not
There is no Eastern Rite church anywhere near where I live or I would attend such a mass regularly.When I travel I always look for such a mass, primarily to avoid surprises, like dancing girls or bongo drums or creative liturgy.
You know how I feel about this issue!
Very good points.
It's an introduction to Priesthood. So, why is it offered to girls?
I am not terribly concerned about that (religion being considered a woman's thing) in my household. I am the one who leads the reading of the evening Rosary. I am the one that leads the hours of the Office each day. yada yada. So that isn't an issue where I come from...
My semi-educated guess is that said people fear that by p***ing off those groups could result in people refusing to give to the Church or to participate in Church activities, or in extreme circumstances outright leaving, any and all of which hurts us all in the end. So, does such an attitude boil down to a perceived "ends justify means"? I think so.
My key points in all this are that with the current dynamic and the CINO's, any strategy that calls for a total reversal will fail without question. Clearly, any immediate "shock and awe" action will be questioned, or worse, fail to be implemented in many spots.
Plus, any gradual move would likely be a long and harrowing process, and once the Liberals see it (and remember, the prevailing moral, ethical, sociopolitical, and fiduciary dynamics of the American Church seem to be in their favor at this point), they will put an end to it. Therefore, I stand by my belief that we cannot do anything serious about it as the situation stands.
At the same time, we sit in a "Damned if we do, damned if we don't situation."
I agree with you that it needs to be changed, and without any doubt in my mind. But how to completely implent that in our society is going to be extremely difficult to effectively pull off, if not outright impossible.
Why? Because fewer boys are wanting to become altar servers in light of females taking over the serving body in some parishes.
I'm not saying the fight should be fought--it needs to be. But we cannot fight this liberalism in the American Church unless we have a cohesive action that answers all these and has a positive effect on the Church as a whole.
Basically, we need to be able to convince the Joe Parishioners who may or may not have an opinion on the greater American Church that this reversal needs to happen without further ado for the sake of the Church's influence in our society and her perpetuity.
Finally, keep in mind that if what we do has nothing but negative ramifications for the needs of the Church, is it really worth doing? I don't believe so.
This is what we should be doing right now as the faithful--serious discussion on how to take back our Church--It's ours too and not just for the Liberals and the Cafeteria Catholics.
Phased out rather than taken away. Just say sorry, Rome prefers us to go back to training just boys. After a few years girls would outgrow their service and we would return to normal. I would not take away something that the Church had already given to a particular person.
LOL!
But what about your fellow parishoners? Surely there are many boys who still flee from anything dominated by women.
The church I grew up in turned out to have some of the worst abuses in the Los Angeles Diocese, but I was never approached in any bad way by the priests, even when I was an altar boy. (Perhaps the fact that my father was a 6-4, 250 lb. former street thug, former Army commando, former judo instructor had something to do with it!)
"p***ing off those groups could result in people refusing to give to the Church or to participate in Church activities, or in extreme circumstances outright leaving, any and all of which hurts us all in the end."
I disagree that it hurts us. LBJ used to say of people who were hard to get along with that it was better to have them inside the tent p***ing out than outside the tent p***ing in.
However, those despicable scoundrels are not inside p***ing out, they're inside p***ing all over *us*, and inviting those outside to do the same. Worse, their status of being "inside the tent" gives them faux credibility to use deceiving the unwary.
The quicker they get their panties in a bunch and storm out, the better. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
"any strategy that calls for a total reversal will fail without question."
I don't think that's true at all. The correlation between orthodoxy and Mass attendance, orthodoxy and vocations, couldn't be clearer.
"Clearly, any immediate "shock and awe" action will be questioned, or worse, fail to be implemented in many spots."
How is that worse than what we have now? Come to think of it, how is that any different from what we have now?
"Plus, any gradual move would likely be a long and harrowing process"
Yes, it would. That's why a sudden coup is needed.
"At the same time, we sit in a "Damned if we do, damned if we don't situation."
No, we're not "damned if we do." All we stand to lose is heretics.
"difficult to effectively pull off, if not outright impossible."
God does a zillion impossible things before breakfast every day.
"Because fewer boys are wanting to become altar servers in light of females taking over the serving body in some parishes."
Yeah, and it won't take any time at all for that to reverse as soon as girls are not allowed to play altar boy any more. Besides, you don't have to have altar boys to celebrate Mass, or to have a parish. Better none than girls.
"But we cannot fight this liberalism in the American Church unless we have a cohesive action that answers all these and has a positive effect on the Church as a whole."
Sort of like, oh, I don't know...Tradition?
"Basically, we need to be able to convince the Joe Parishioners"
Convince them or show them the door; either way works for me.
"for the sake of the Church's influence in our society"
Eh? How about for the sake of our immortal souls?
"Finally, keep in mind that if what we do has nothing but negative ramifications for the needs of the Church, is it really worth doing? I don't believe so."
I don't believe you have adequately supported your predictions of negative ramifications. What, there are fewer of us because the heretics are now outside the tent trying to p*ss in, instead of inside p***ing all over us? Sounds good to me.
"This is what we should be doing right now as the faithful--serious discussion"
Discussion only takes you so far. I think most of us have been over and over this until we can type it in our sleep. The question is, what to do?
There may be, but that is not really borne out by fact. The fact is that there is pretty close to a 50/50 split with altar servers. Were they to send a notice to my daughter and the other girls in the parish that their service at the altar of God is no longer needed or wanted by the parish, would there be boys to replace my daughter and the other girls? I would hope so...but who knows?
"would there be boys to replace my daughter and the other girls?"
It might take a while for things to get back to normal, but would it be a disaster if if you were short of altar boys for a while?
I take your responses rather personally...as my daughter is one of the spawn of Satan that you all are referring to: a (female) altar server ((oooooooohhhh)).
First, as I've said before, if either of you have read my posts on this subject, you will both recognize that I am hardly a "cafeteria Catholic" or hardly a "CINO." That characterization applies to my family, as well: family Rosary, daily recitation of the Divine Office (frankly, my daughter only does the morning and evening office), etc.
Our parish is one of the more Orthodox in our diocese (Wash DC)...we have a good daily Mass attendence, healthy participation in Confession (don't know the #'s, but there are lines every Saturday with 2-3 priests hearing confession), good participation for weekly Eucharistic Adoration and Benediction, etc. We have good attendence at our 7:30 Latin Mass. Could it be more Orthodox and conservative? Possibly, but I consider the stock of people (Md. suburbs of Wash DC) and I'm thankful for what we've got. Not like we live in Greenville SC and have the option of going to St. Mary's or Christ the King parishes down there (but we do when we visit).
When you start about people p*ssing in your tent (in the context of female altar servers), you're talking about me. Because my daughter is one of those evil little girls and I am one of those evil parents who encourages her to do so. And I am in the mood to reach my hand through a computer screen and crush some fingers right about now with what I've read...the broad brush characterizations apply neither to my daughter or her family, nor to any of the families of any of the other girls who serve at my parish's altar. The families of the girls who serve are, so far as I am familiar, good, solid Catholic families. They are the families where the husband is a Knight and the wife is in the altar society. And that is why I am so insulted by your characterizations.
And let me inform you about boys and girls serving at altar: at least in our parish, it goes by family -- if the boys of a family want to serve, the girls of that family want to as well. You know what? The CINO families don't want their kids up on the altar at all (boy or girl). The children haven't been catechized at home to want to serve God. Therefore, the desire isn't there. And you can tell...
Now having said all of this: one of the benefits of altar serving is supposed to be the moral formation of the server and to assist them in discernment of a vocation. It is one of the few serious tasks available to a teen to help accomplish this. The vocations available to my daughter are being a wife or consecrated/ religious life. There are very few examples of religious in our parish (the ones we have are, frankly, ancient) and I see this as about the only thing available in our parish to help her with the discernment of her vocation in life. And I don't see a viable alternative to help her with that discernment.
So what do you suggest for her or other young ladies like her? Don't pop off and say choir girl...not a suitable substitute (if you were to hear and see our children's choir, you'd recognize this). Don't say try another parish...the other parishes within decent driving distance are hardly places where I'd send my family...
You talk about female altar servers like they and their families are the problem, when, at least with my experience, they are the ones who are the orthodox ones in the parish...the ones who contribute both the male and the female servers...the types of families who go down to DC for the March for Life, the ones who complain if they see a liturgical abuse, the ones who are in line at Confession, the ones who actually do something in the parish. Fine, phase out female altar servers. But tell me some realistic and equivalent alternative where these girls (whose service is no longer welcome) can get some formation. I simply don't see many parishes with other, spiritual opportunities anymore (Sodalities and the like)...but I'm more than happy to listen...
"t might take a while for things to get back to normal, but would it be a disaster if if you were short of altar boys for a while?"
For the parish, no. Altar servers are optional in the Novus Ordo.
For my daughter, yeah, I think it would be pretty ugly if she got a letter in the mail saying "your service is no longer needed"
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