Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; stripes1776; sionnsar

I don't "worship" God's word. How could one worship a bunch of words as divine as they are? Reverence, venerate, nor worship fits. We don't worship words unless you consider the Word incarnate. One should deeply respect God's word for it is the power of salvation. Nothing more.

I'm not being as contentious as I am disagreeable. This article started out by saying that Reformers "...make such rash judgments about Christians who would give honour to the "holy place" of worship by a bow or a bending of the knee is simply silly." I don't find it silly at all. There are solid Biblical reasons for this. Catholics, EO, and others cannot explain it regardless of what the 7th Ecumenical Council states and while I have not read this particular document I have read the perspective on this. The arguments are weak. You cannot succiently explain it so what does that say.

It is interesting to me that people such as Kosta will minimize the Bible to the point of questioning it's authority by saying that it took the Church fathers 400 years to determine if the Bible was inspired. If Kosta doesn't believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God then he should throw it out. The early church knew it was inspired so he's going against tradition. Does that make anyone uncomfortable? Probably not. The early church fathers must have known what was inspired and what wasn't. Sorry. No Bible. No traditions.

Yet venerating idols declared in the 8th century was OK? I may be wrong but I'd be willing to bet that you can't point me to one major church father for the first 500 years that would agree with venerating to idols. I certainly can point you to 1st century church fathers about protecting the word of God. But the Bible is wrong and venerating to idols is OK.

Who do you think "blessed" those icons? A priest? Someone in the Church's heirarchy? Really?


42 posted on 12/11/2005 6:43:37 PM PST by HarleyD ("Command what you will and give what you command." - Augustine's Prayer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies ]


To: HarleyD; Kolokotronis
It is interesting to me that people such as Kosta will minimize the Bible to the point of questioning it's authority by saying that it took the Church fathers 400 years to determine if the Bible was inspired

The Church took 400 years to canonize the Christian Bible. It took that long because the Fathers were not entirely sure which of the many gospels and epistles were inspired and which profane. There was considerable disagreement among them as to which scrolls to include and which to exclude. It's a historical fact, not fiction you are peddling. It's Church history 101 (apprently you skipped that class).

I believe that everything in the Bible is inspired word of God. But my Bible is not the same as your Bible. That's Church history 102 (you skipped that class too; apparently you ad your fellow Protesters think Christianity started 500 years ago by Martin Luther).

You are also accusing me of questioning the authority of the Bible, and I ask you: Did not Martin Luther do the same thing when he changed the Bible the Church held sacred for practically 1,200 years? Did not Luther consider the Bible of his days to be imperfect? For if the Bible were perfect and true all along, he would have not found a need to change it.

You are questioning also who blesses the icons. The icons are blessed at the altar (they remain on the altar for 40 days). We pray that God would bless them, and we trust that He does. Apparently you don't.

Pecca fortiter...

46 posted on 12/11/2005 9:21:03 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies ]

To: HarleyD; kosta50; stripes1776; sionnsar

Here's the proclaimation of the Council, Harley:

"To make our confession short, we keep unchanged all the ecclesiastical traditions handed down to us, whether in writing or verbally, one of which is the making of pictorial representations, agreeable to the history of the preaching of the Gospel, a tradition useful in many respects, but especially in this, that so the incarnation of the Word of God is shown forth as real and not merely phantastic, for these have mutual indications and without doubt have also mutual significations.

We, therefore, following the royal pathway and the divinely inspired authority of our Holy Fathers and the traditions of the Catholic Church (for, as we all know, the Holy Spirit indwells her), define with all certitude and accuracy that just as the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross, so also the venerable and holy images, as well in painting and mosaic as of other fit materials, should be set forth in the holy churches of God, and on the sacred vessels and on the vestments and on hangings and in pictures both in houses and by the wayside, to wit, the figure of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, of our spotless Lady, the Mother of God, of the honourable Angels, of all Saints and of all pious people. For by so much more frequently as they are seen in artistic representation, by so much more readily are men lifted up to the memory of their prototypes, and to a longing after them; and to these should be given due salutation and honourable reverence (aspasmon kai timhtikhn proskunh-sin), not indeed that true worship of faith (latreian) which pertains alone to the divine nature; but to these, as to the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross and to the Book of the Gospels and to the other holy objects, incense and lights may be offered according to ancient pious custom. For the honour which is paid to the image passes on to that which the image represents, and he who reveres the image reveres in it the subject represented. For thus the teaching of our holy Fathers, that is the tradition of the Catholic Church, which from one end of the earth to the other hath received the Gospel, is strengthened. Thus we follow Paul, who spake in Christ, and the whole divine Apostolic company and the holy Fathers, holding fast the traditions which we have received. So we sing prophetically the triumphal hymns of the Church, "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Sion; Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem. Rejoice and be glad with all thy heart. The Lord hath taken away from thee the oppression of thy adversaries; thou art redeemed from the hand of thine enemies. The Lord is a King in the midst of thee; thou shalt not see evil any more, and peace be unto thee forever."

Those, therefore who dare to think or teach otherwise, or as wicked heretics to spurn the traditions of the Church and to invent some novelty, or else to reject some of those things which the Church hath received (e.g., the Book of the Gospels, or the image of the cross, or the pictorial icons, or the holy reliques of a martyr), or evilly and sharply to devise anything subversive of the lawful traditions of the Catholic Church or to turn to common uses the sacred vessels or the venerable monasteries,2 if they be Bishops or Clerics, we command that they be deposed; if religious or laics, that they be cut off from communion."

That's what The Church believed for the 1500 years prior to Luther, Harley, and what it still believes. Now it is one thing to say that you personally don't want to venerate icons, that you personally don't need them. Its quite another to take the position of Mohammedans and other ancient heretics and say that the veneration of icons is the worship of idols.


50 posted on 12/12/2005 4:03:08 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson