Quite frankly, Catholic doctrine is like nailing jello to a tree. Catholics whoop and hollower Protestants are wrong about this or that even if it is taken from the Catholic website. Some people tell us you're condemned if you are outside the Catholic Church and then others tell us that God can save those outside the Church. Catholic state they don't worship Mary but then we find there are two adoration within the Church; one for God and one for the Saints. Then we have Catholics who claim I have completely messed up [name the doctrine] and don't know what I'm talking about even when I take the official Catholic website and post it verbatim. I remember one time I just copy the official Catholic position without reference and was told I was wrong. Go figure.
The meaning of indulgences is clear within the Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church is empowered by God to grant time out of Purgatory in return for doing things approved by the Church. Period. It has been this way for over 500 years. If you feel uncomfortable about that process or the fact that the Vatican charged people for the opportunity to get their loved ones out of Purgatory, I would suggest writing the Vatican-not Mr. Marlowe or myself. They don't burn people at the stake anymore for questioning the practice but you will probably get a polite letter.
You will find, as we come to the conclusion of this series (4 more), indulgences was only a thread that unraveled the doctrine this was built upon.
BTW I really do appreciate these threads. Keep up the good fight.
I was speaking of you in particular, and this conversation we just had about confession, penance and indulgences. The article series you are posting have problems of poor historicity in general -- they are polemical, not historical, -- and on occasion, they distort facts, like the way they presented the situation with availability of copies of the Bible or their translations. When they do, one Catholic (presumably) or another would point it out.
I trust your confusion about the Catholic doctrine of confession, penance and indulgence is genuine and not an intentional distortion, but again, given the amount of energy you put in explaining to us what the Catholic Church teaches, one would expect, for example, a familiarity with what "purpose of amendment" means, or at what point in the process a sin becomes forgiven. Like Jo Kus said, if you wish to protest, it is expected of you to figure out what you are protesting about. Yes, some distinctions in the Catholic doctrine are subtle. If it is too subtle for your comfort, well, unless you are thinking of coming back to the Church, you need not be bothered by these subtleties. I am sure when you put your questions about distinctions between
- the universal invisible catholic Church and the visible Catholic Church
- ordinary means of salvation (which the Protestants avoid) and extraordinary means of salvation (which the Protestants expect to avail themselves directly from Christ)
- veneration of Mary and saints and worship of God (and adoration of the Blessed Sacrament)
- Purgatory and Hell
- Indulgence and penance
, one of us here will give you an answer that will state these distinctions very clearly. If it still remains a big blur to you, we feel frustrated, -- not because you don't understand, which is your privilege, but because you appear knowledgeable about Catholicism, quote form New Advent site and the Church Fathers, but do not know the meaning of words used therein.
I think you got it this time about indulgences. It is "time out of Purgatory in return for doing things approved by the Church". It was wrong to sell them. It is fine to grant them or earn them. Who is uncomfortable? You are? Don't do them - they are not mandatory.
You seem to be defending Marlowe from me. I did not attack him an any way. He asked about St. Peter and papacy, and I gave a scriptural answer, just what he wanted. We did no discuss indulgencies with him at all.
Wrong. I have already posted you several examples in which you have not disagreed with.