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To: annalex; P-Marlowe; jo kus; Campion
once faith is understood as faith formed by works of love rather than declarative faith, the 'sola fide' becomes a biblically acceptable doctrine.

Hmmm? I'd still argue that the faith is not "formed by works" of anything, but rather the "works of love" are a necessary consequence of faith, and if you don't see works, you don't have faith. But I don't know if that's what you meant.

Once 'sola scriptura' is understood as reading the Scripture in the light of the patristic teaching and in the context in which it was written by the human writer, that becomes acceptable.

I almost agree. I think the patristics should be given significant weight in interpreting Scripture - and certainly no Christian has the right to re-interpret Scripture as he sees fit. One should disagree with the Early Church with great care. I would argue that the immediate historical context and the rules of grammar and textual construction would take precedence, however.

Once grace is understood as transforming grace rather than a coat of paint, 'sola gratia' becomes acceptable.

That's pretty much my argument.

141 posted on 12/06/2005 2:07:02 PM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: jude24
"works of love" are a necessary consequence of faith

And vice versa, faith grows with works. It is like growing a plant. The seed is there, but then you till the soil, put in fertilizer, chase away sparrows. You work, or else the seed does not grow.

Faith is not cheap. It has to be tested by actual sacrifice, -- pain, sweat, effort, work. Grace is there to form our faith, and it is formed by something we do. The two sons were asked to work in the garden. One said that he will, then changed his mind. That was a declaration of faith (in the wisdom of the father's command). The other did not say anything but worked. Now, who had real faith?

Other than from the lives of saints, how many believers do you know that gave their life for the faith? Christ asked for it.

144 posted on 12/06/2005 2:17:43 PM PST by annalex
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To: jude24
I'd still argue that the faith is not "formed by works" of anything, but rather the "works of love" are a necessary consequence of faith, and if you don't see works, you don't have faith.

Faith without works is dead (James)

Works without faith is dead (Paul)

Faith without love is dead (Paul)

I see there is quite an interaction between the two. When Christ speaks about obeying the commandments and such, I think everyone naturally presumed that faith, too, must be involved - how can you love without faith? And vice versus. When Christ speaks about faith and salvation, I think He is also presuming that we will express it through love and obedience to God. I notice that Paul never says that we are saved by faith alone, nor does he say that love is worthless for salvation. He does say that nothing matters but faith working through love. (try to figure out which operates to vivify what! It sounds like the chicken/egg dilemna)

Regards

150 posted on 12/06/2005 5:09:55 PM PST by jo kus
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