[HarleyD]

Previous Sermons…

The History of the Reformation-How Christ restored the gospel to his church (Part 1)

The History of the Reformation…The Goose That Became a Swan…John Huss (Part 2)

The History of the Reformation… The Morning Star of the Reformation… John Wycliffe (Part 3)

The History of the Reformation…De Haeretico Comburendo… The Lollards (Part 4)

The History of the Reformation...The Little Red Bible Chained to the Wall (Part 5)

The History of the Reformation…The Cowl (Part 6)

For the history from the Roman Catholic perspective I would recommend the following posts:

THE ROOTS OF THE REFORMATION (Part 1) BY KARL ADAM

[HarleyD]

History ping.

[gbcdoj]

I've got to be off, but one quick point:

Venial sin was not thought of as causing the loss of some justifying grace, as the author of this piece mistakenly says: "venial sin is a hindrance to actual comeliness, but not to habitual comeliness, because it neither destroys nor diminishes the habit of charity and of the other virtues, as we shall show further on, but only hinders their acts" (St. Thomas, I-II q. 89 a. 1) "venial sin is not contrary to habitual grace or charity, but hampers its act, through man being too much attached to a created good, albeit not in opposition to God" (III q. 87 a. 2).

[InterestedQuestioner]

"medieval Catholics viewed justification like this....At Baptism A Man Stands Fully Justified."

As opposed to what? Being partially justified at Baptism??

[Conservative til I die]

Can't wait to see the flame fly on this one! I'll have to check this one out later tonight.

[Campion]

Each step gained for the faithful pilgrim and indulgence of 9 years…that is, it removed nine years from a person’s stay in purgatory.

This is false. The "years" or "days" associated with indulgences were years or days of "canonical penance". "Canonical penance" was a pentential practice in the early church that involved a temporary excommunication and a mild sort of "shunning".

The Catholic Church has never defined any dogma concerning the passage of time in purgatory.

At least your author, in this post, manages to distinguish between indulgences and temporal punishment, on the one hand, and confession, justification, and eternal punishment, on the other.

This is still polemic, not history. (Ministers write polemic. Historians write history.)

[wmfights]

Thanks for the posting. I am enjoying/learning a great deal.

[InterestedQuestioner]

"Now to state that as plainly as I can, the Catholic Church taught that when a person sinned they lost the grace that they had first obtained in their baptism."

Incorrect.

It also taught that a person could restore themselves to a state of grace by doing works of penance.

Also Incorrect.

God’s grace was first obtained in baptism and then if lost reattained through penance.

Incorrect Again.

[bigsigh]

…the trip from Erfurt to Rome is just about exactly the same distance as a trip from Arlington to Denver.

Actually, 1685 miles.

[InterestedQuestioner]

According to your article:

"Now to state that as plainly as I can, the Catholic Church taught that when a person sinned they lost the grace that they had first obtained in their baptism."

Incorrect.

It also taught that a person could restore themselves to a state of grace by doing works of penance.

Also Incorrect.

"God’s grace was first obtained in baptism and then if lost reattained through penance."

Incorrect Again.

[jo kus]

From the article:

The question then became and this was a very important question…what does a person do to restore themselves to the state of grace they had before. The answer was they were to do works of penance. The Council of Trent put it this way…

"As regards those who, by sin, have fallen from the received grace of Justification, they may be again justified, when, God exciting them, through the sacrament of Penance they shall have attained to the recovery, by the merit of Christ, of the grace lost: for this manner of Justification is of the fallen the reparation: which the holy Fathers have aptly called a second plank after the shipwreck of grace lost."

Another fine example of lousy interpretation of the Council of Trent. The Sacrament of Penance is called "works of penance", which naturally twists the whole idea of the Sacrament. We are absolved of our sins BEFORE WE DO ANY PENANCE! We are forgiven based on our sorrow and the eternal value of Christ's death and resurrection applied to our own subjective redemption and sanctification. Thus, the author, yet again, misinterprets not only what Trent says, but adds fuel to the fire by mixing his own theological beliefs and contrasts them with the "incorrect teachings" of Catholicism. Again, a poor excuse of history when one presents an inaccurate picture of what Catholicism is. Isn't the above quote from Trent clear enough?

For any interested in understanding Catholicism, don't bother reading these "histories" as the definitive sense of the Reformation. If you can't even get Catholic teaching correct, how can you understand why the Protestants protested?

Regards

[P-Marlowe]

I see you are catching a lot of heat from your detractors, but I don't see much light from them. (they must be using infra-red). They accuse you of being Anti-Catholic when in fact it seems to me that these threads simply point to the reasons why the reformation came about. Now your detractors can argue about whether or not the Reformation was necessary, but I have not seen any legitmate criticism of whether or not the Reformers had legitimate reasons to criticize and ultimately separate from the Roman Church.

This was a very interesting and enlightening article. Thanks for posting it.

[jo kus]

The problem with that was that the underlying Hebrew and Greek words for “to justify” both carried the nuance “to declare righteous” rather than “to make righteous.” I hope you can see why that matters. If not maybe this will help. I am reading from Alister McGrath’s Reformation Thought.

Here, we have a false conclusion. The word "declare" does not necessarily have to mean something is only legally or extrinisically a reality. The author is trying to prove that Jerome believed in imputed justification, which is utter nonsense. The word "declare" can also actually mean what God intends it to be. If something is declared righteous, then it IS.

I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye [that are] escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god [that] cannot save. Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? [who] hath told it from that time? [have] not I the LORD? and [there is] no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; [there is] none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall [one] say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: [even] to him shall [men] come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed (Isaiah 45:19-24)

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. (Isaiah 55:10-11)

And I will make Jerusalem heaps, [and] a den of dragons; and I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant. Who [is] the wise man, that may understand this? and [who is he] to whom the mouth of the LORD hath spoken, that he may declare it, for what the land perisheth [and] is burned up like a wilderness, that none passeth through? And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein; But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them: (Jer 9:11-14)

It is fictional to believe that God, who created the heavens and the earth out of nothing with His Word, cannot make a man righteous, but must resort to some legal fiction. Thus, the premise is based on a false assumption.

Regards

[PAR35]

I admire your self control in dealing with bozos. Thanks for these threads.

[Dahlseide]

Thanks again. I praise God for Hus, Wycliffe, the Lollards, Luther, Calvin, Knox ... & oh yes Augustine.

[wmfights]

Thanks for the posting.

I'm surprised that with all the defense of the RCC that there was no discussion about mistaken translations by Jerome. I'm not fluent in Greek or Hebrew it would have been illuminating to hear from someone who is.

[ScubieNuc]

Thanks for the post. Alot to read, but worth it.

Sincerely