The History of the Reformation…Rome and Romans (Part 7)

Arlington Presbyterian Church ^ | December 12, 2004 | Tom Browning

[annalex]

The history is presented on this thread, as it was pointed out, very poorly, and some opinions expressed here are inaccurate as regards Catholic teaching. I agree that some posts are intemperate, by the way, but I am glad you agree that on historical in intent threads all sides should participate.

Were Cathoics disruptive on the Arminian/Calvinist threads or merely posting opinions?

About Peter. I merely gave you an example of a repeatedly posted error, despite correction. I did so narrowly pointing out that in fact both Peter and the rock are described by the same word. This is a statement of fact. I know Greek and can tell you so with authority. Please do not repeat the "pebble" fantasy again. As to your other questions:

- St. Peter alone was given the keys to the Kingdom and was told to feed and guide Christ's sheep, by Christ. This is the basis of Peter's papacy, along with, of course, the Rock nickname and his prominence on shaping the Church seen in the Acts.

- The Catholic view is that priests are our spiritual Fathers, and Christ only discourages from giving the honorific "father" to men who are not fathers in either biological or spiritual sense. Besides, either Christ or St. Paul in fact refers to people as fathers (a trip to a good Catholic apologetics website will provide quote, and I got to run), so clearly the admonition was meant by Christ in some narrow sense. We also teach that men can be holy. So we choose to call Holy Father the man who is both holy and father.

I will be back tomorrow.

[suzyjaruki]

No offense intended Dion, but this is a post that has me laughing uncontrollably.

[HarleyD]

I'm not entirely sure of what distortion you are talking about. There is no distortion of the Catholic faith in what this author is stating. Nor am I'm deliberately distorting the Catholic position. I will also state that once our Catholic brethren have started posting their version of the Reformation, I have included their version as well in my research links so that all may compare the two versions. There is no difference from what this Presbyterian minister is stating than the Catholics.

Quite frankly, Catholic doctrine is like nailing jello to a tree. Catholics whoop and hollower Protestants are wrong about this or that even if it is taken from the Catholic website. Some people tell us you're condemned if you are outside the Catholic Church and then others tell us that God can save those outside the Church. Catholic state they don't worship Mary but then we find there are two adoration within the Church; one for God and one for the Saints. Then we have Catholics who claim I have completely messed up [name the doctrine] and don't know what I'm talking about even when I take the official Catholic website and post it verbatim. I remember one time I just copy the official Catholic position without reference and was told I was wrong. Go figure.

The meaning of indulgences is clear within the Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church is empowered by God to grant time out of Purgatory in return for doing things approved by the Church. Period. It has been this way for over 500 years. If you feel uncomfortable about that process or the fact that the Vatican charged people for the opportunity to get their loved ones out of Purgatory, I would suggest writing the Vatican-not Mr. Marlowe or myself. They don't burn people at the stake anymore for questioning the practice but you will probably get a polite letter.

You will find, as we come to the conclusion of this series (4 more), indulgences was only a thread that unraveled the doctrine this was built upon.

[InterestedQuestioner]

"Well, if you don't like these fights, you might wish to avoid the current series of threads that Harley is posting."


You just acknowledged that fights will be the inevitable outcome of Harley's posts. Wasn't the point of your complaint to me earlier that I was creating rancor between Protestants and Catholics?


" I could not help but notice that your first post on this thread was to accuse either the author or the poster of writing in a 3rd grade style."

Thank you for noticing. Just to clarify, I am referring to the author of these articles, which are written at a third grade level.

"A good percentage of those threads are highly critical of Protestants and are dedicated to the idea that the Roman Church has a lock on the truth and that all other churches are in apostasy."

I see.

"Lately, however, it seems that the Protestants simply can't post any thread without at least two or three Catholics that I can think of coming in and proclaiming how the Protestants have it all wrong and how the only true path is through Rome."

That must really bother you.

"So what the Pope is really saying is that if you are really really true to your own religion, no matter whether it is Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam or whatever, that you will be saved. Thanks for clearing that up."

That came from one of your posts a day or two ago, in which you denied that any other religions could contain any truth whatsoever. Apparently you will be offended either way, and reserve to yourself the right to declare that everything else but what you believe is false. Just to clarify, we believe that our faith is True. We also believe that the Apostolic Faith was handed down through the Church.

"Generally I try to avoid those threads as every time I post on them and make any attempt to defend the Protestant Church against the propaganda of the Catholic Church and Catholic Church Theologians, I am accused of "Catholic Bashing".

So now it's our "propaganda" that offends you. I see.

"Your faith is your faith. It may be in vain, but nevertheless it is yours."

Thanks, pm.

"I doubt very seriously if anyone is attacking your faith."

Guess I'll have to take your word that my faith, which is in vain, has never been attacked here on Free Republic.

"What they are attacking is the basis for your faith, i.e., whether you have any scriptural grounds for your doctrinal stands or whether your rituals or practices are in violation of scripture, etc."

So no one is attacking my faith, rather it's merely the grounds of my faith, that are under attack.

"The fact of the matter is that the Reformation was based upon the premise that many of the teachings and practices of the Roman Catholic Church were not only non-scriptural, but were actually in violation of the plain language of scripture."

Good to know my faith is in plain violation of the language of Scripture, but it's not under attack. It's just like Justification by faith alone, in that sense. Or Predestination to hell. Or the Pope is the anti-Christ. Not that my faith is under attack though.



"Quite frankly this thread is a Protestant Thread (one of only a few posted each week) and there are plenty of Catholic Threads on Free Republic where Protestants don't usually go and where you are free to discuss your peculiar doctrines and practices without criticism from anyone."

I see, sp the problem is that your upset that a Catholic is posting on an anti-Catholic series of threads? This thread is for Protestants only, even if it happens to malign and misrepresent the Catholic faith? Just let the disinformation about Catholics and the Catholic Church slide, in these little stories which the author himself assures us are "Mostly Tue," or if they aren't, he's not too concerned about it?

"Frankly, I think you should ask that your post be pulled."

Lol. You want my thread pulled because I mentioned anti-Catholicism?

"You guys just are so sensitive that any challenge to your peculiar practices and beliefs is seen as Anti-Catholicism"

You're saying the problem is that we're too sensitive? But you would like to have my post yanked because it mentions anti-Catholicsm?

"That may seem like "anti-Catholicism" to you, but that is because it does not comport with your world view."

Actually, P-Marlowe, anti-Catholicism seems like anti-Catholicism to me because it's anti-Catholicsm.

"It (the KKK)was NEVER a mainstream protestant organization "

I see.

"My suggestion is that if this stuff is so painful to you, perhaps you should avoid it."

ok.

"..you are free to discuss your peculiar doctrines and practices without criticism from anyone..."

Thank you for the permission, P-Marlowe. As long as I don't wonder off of the "Catholic" threads I have your permission to post my "peculiar" doctrines. That's very generous.



"Very little of that (mis-representation of Catholic teaching) occurs here."

Lol. Good to know the mis-representation of Catholic teaching here is "very little."

"Lately, however, it seems that the Protestants simply can't post any thread without at least two or three Catholics that I can think of coming in and proclaiming how the Protestants have it all wrong and how the only true path is through Rome."

Proclaiming? That Protestants have it all wrong? Weren't you upset that we said all religions teach elements of
truth?

"Well, in the old days the protestants and catholics solved their differences by burning each other at the stake. I don't think the persecution you receive here on Free Republic is worthy of mention in light of the persecution that both Protestants and Catholics received in the past."

I think it was a bit more complicated than that. Catholics and Protestants often collaborated in the "old days," just as we do in the "new days." Now, according to you, however, when anti-Catholics get intellectually frustrated after being caught in slanders and start callings us "Papists" and speaking of us as "The Romanisist" I shouldn't bother to address it. Just consider it perfectly acceptable and Christian behavior. P-Marlowe, it looks like my attempts to reconcile are not going to bear fruit. I think I see where you're coming from, PM.

Fair enough. If someone is going to mis-represent the Catholic faith, they might actually want to expect the indignity of having someone speak up for the truth. You don't have to post disinformation about the Church. If your doctrines were ever correct, they could have stood without having to resort to attacks against the Catholic Faith. Allow me to start.

"A good percentage of those threads are highly critical of Protestants and are dedicated to the idea that the Roman Church has a lock on the truth and that all other churches are in apostasy."

Incorrect, P-Marlowe.

1. We do not believe that other Christians are apostates. Period.

2. Seems to me that you were pretty upset with the Catholic assertion that all religions contain some degree of truth, so you already know your fundamental statement, that the Church of Rome has a "lock" on the truth was incorrect.

3. If the Church of Rome offends you, but you want to experience the Apostolic Faith as handed down by Jesus Christ to the Apostles and transmitted via the Church and the Fathers, you always have to option of considering Orthodox Catholicism.

[InterestedQuestioner]

"Nor am I'm deliberately distorting the Catholic position."

Good to hear that it's not deliberate, Harley, but you are nonetheless distorting Catholic positions, and a number of us have are taking great pains to explain why that is. Since you have been at it on a daily basis for the last 2 months, I have also requested that you stop distorting Catholic teachings.

Post # 46 is a very simple example. Do you understand why what you have written there is a misrepresentation of Catholic belief? You have several of us telling you that it is a misrepresentation, correct? Do you not believe us?

[P-Marlowe]

You have utterly twisted just about everthing I said.

That being said, I see no value in continuing this discussion.

Thanks for your input.

Marlowe

[P-Marlowe]

Now, pony up. Where have Catholic posters defended Arminius or Arminianism as distinct from defending the doctrine of free taught by all the Fathers of the Church, including Augustine?

I don't believe I said that they were defending Arminianism. Instead they generally come in on the side of the Arminians and basically attack Calvinism. But it seems that Catholics do not like Calvinism for wholly different reasons than Arminians don't like Calvinism.

FWIW I don't believe Augustine was a free willer. From what I have read he seemed to preach a predestination that was very close to Calvinism.

[InterestedQuestioner]

"You have utterly twisted just about everthing I said. "

I see, so now distortion is a bad thing, although distorting Catholic teachings only occurs "very little" here.

Have I misunderstood what you intended to communicate to me with your post? That I should stick to the "Catholic threads?" That you are offended if the Roman Catholic Church teaches that all religions contain some degree of truth, and at the same time offended because you claim the Church teaches that it has a "lock" on the truth? Which is it, P-Marlowe?

"But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the marketplaces, who call unto their fellows and say, We piped unto you, and ye did not dance; we wailed, and ye did not mourn." For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a demon. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom is justified by her works."

And P-Marlowe, I don't think I twisted your claim that Catholics are proclaiming other Christians are Apostates. I don't think I twisted that one at all. Your claim is false.

P-Marlowe, why don't you show me where I have utterly twisted "just about" everything you said. Are those not your words? Have I misunderstood what you intended to convey with them when you wrote about my "peculiar" doctrines?

[jude24]

It was NEVER a mainstream protestant organization and to equate the criticism that goes on here with the KKK is beyond the pale. Frankly, I think you should ask that your post be pulled.

The KKK is only the most extreme example of anti-Catholicism in American history - and given the popularity of Birth of a Nation, it is clear it enjoyed some support from Protestants. But, even before the KKK, in the 1840's a major American political party (the American Party, better known as the "Know-Nothings") had as their centerpiece an anti-catholic platform.

[P-Marlowe]

I do think that the comparison between Harley and the KKK (which was the poster's intent) was beyond the pale. But I've been wrong before.

[P-Marlowe]

I'm sorry, but the discussion is over.

Carry on.

[AlbionGirl]

Second, there is a level of frustration reached when a particular distortion of Catholic faith is presented, corrected, and then repeated by the same poster.

I hope you won't take offense at this, but some of the best Catholic posters don't do a very good job of refuting some of this stuff. It seems to boil down to semantics, and that's not usually very convincing stuff. Not to mention that Catholics seem unduly defensive, when they don't need to be.

The Faith is not so simple to explain, at least not to my way of thinking, and it would help for admission of past wrongs to be a little more than the perfunctory and standard 'we're only human.'

Isn't there some evidence that Pope Benedict sees Luther in a positive light? Perhaps Luther shouldn't have taken the course he took, but maybe he didn't think he had a choice. And maybe, Luther caused the Church to take a good, long look at Herself and begin to live again as She was intended to. We could have used men made of such stern stuff as regards all of our recent woes. The lessons of history if not learned are destined to be repeated for individual, State and Church alike.

[jude24]

That may be. If it were a slur on Harley, than it was over-the-top. But I didn't read it that way - I read it as a recitation of the history of anti-catholic bigotry. In the Protestant world, we think nothing of it, because our anti-Catholic rhetoric ends at the church door, and is entirely theological. The Catholics remember how bad things were just 50 years ago. When John Kennedy ran for President, a lot of the voters were really concerned that his loyalties would lie with a foreign power, and not the United States. We don't know how much things have changed in the past 50 years - now, John Kerry's problem was that he was not enough of a traditionalist Catholic.

Anti-catholicism was a huge problem in the United States. Ever wonder why the Catholics created a whole parochial school system? One of the driving forces behind compulsary education laws was that the public schools would indoctrinate the Catholicism out of the kids, and turn them into good American Protestants, loyal to the President and not the Pope.

Anti-catholic bigotry was very real, and it's only been a generation since the dramatic shift in Evangelical attitudes towards Catholicism started.

For more information about this, read Mark Noll's Is the Reformation Over?. It's an examination of the interactions between the Evangelical community and the Catholic Church by one of the best evangelical academics out there.

[InterestedQuestioner]

"The Bible not only admonishes us not to call any man Father..."

LOL. Is that what the Bible admonishes us to do, P-Marlowe? Can I ask what you call your father, then? LOL. What do you call "Father's day?" How do you feel about the father of our country, George Washington? You know, we Americans have erected a monument in his honor. And the founding fathers? LOL.


How about actually going to the Scriptures, P-Marlowe:

"Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death;" (Matt 10:21)

Here we see our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, using the word "father" for someone other than Our Father in Heaven. Let's look again:


"For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel." (1 Cor 4:15)

Here we see St. Paul referring to himself as the father in Christ of Christians. This is, of course, the sense in which Catholics use the phrase.

Christ was using hyperbole when he said, "Call no man your father," and you've misunderstood the intent of that passage. I think you'll find the word "father" used to refer to people besides the Almighty at least a hundred times in the New Testament. Perhaps you overlooked that?

I'm sure you're well aware that the Calvinist doctrine on the Scripture, "call no man your father," is the Scriptural pretense for the Calvinist doctrine that the Pope is the anti-Christ. Nothing like sound Biblical exegisis as a basis of solid doctrine.

[InterestedQuestioner]

"I'm sorry, but the discussion is over."

It's over, but you're going to keep talking about it? Is it over or is it not over, P-Marlowe? Is this like your taking offense that the Catholic Church notes that all religions contain some degree of truth, while simultaneously claiming that Catholics believe they have a "lock" on the truth. Which is it going to be, p-Marlowe? If you want it to be over, let it drop. Better yet, don't misrepresent the Church in the first place.

[P-Marlowe]

Please do not post to me on this thread again. Our discussion is over.

[blue-duncan]

"And P-Marlowe, I don't think I twisted your claim that Catholics are proclaiming other Christians are Apostates. I don't think I twisted that one at all. Your claim is false."

"Just to clarify, we believe that our faith is True. We also believe that the Apostolic Faith was handed down through the Church."
"If your doctrines were ever correct, they could have stood without having to resort to attacks against the Catholic Faith"
"3. If the Church of Rome offends you, but you want to experience the Apostolic Faith as handed down by Jesus Christ to the Apostles and transmitted via the Church and the Fathers, you always have to option of considering Orthodox Catholicism"

The latter quotes are from your post 64 and taken together state pretty clearly that other Christians not believing Roman Catholic doctrine are apostate.

[P-Marlowe]

Boy Harley, see all the trouble I got into just trying to show that deep down your are a pretty good guy? I suppose I'd have been better off saying that deep down inside you are a depraved sinner.

BTW I really do appreciate these threads. Keep up the good fight.

[jude24]

I'm sure you're well aware that the Calvinist doctrine on the Scripture, "call no man your father," is the Scriptural pretense for the Calvinist doctrine that the Pope is the anti-Christ.

The Calvinists don't teach that anymore. The Orthodox Presbyterian Church, the Presbyterian Church in America, and the Bible Presbyterian Church have all removed the reference to the Pope being the anti-christ from the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Now they just say he isn't the head of the church, Christ is.