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Yesterday I wrote about Dame Vera Lynn and my conviction that the times they are a-changing in Rome and that in the pontificate of Benedict XVI anything is possible. Well, now it seems that those "Lights" about which she sang just might be about to come on again ! Rumors surfaced a few weeks ago promising some kind of statement on the Latin Mass on or around November 19 and this interview was apparently conducted over a three day period beginning on the 19th. It certainly sets the stage for a Papal pronouncement in the near future. The statements by three key cardinals of the last few weeks (Arinze, Medina Estevez and Castrillon Hoyos) clearly point to an imminent intervention by the Pope in favor of the Traditional Tridentine Mass. Taken in globo I think the apparent counter-statements by Arinze and Castrillon-Hoyos a few weeks back can be seen as the Curia's way of raising the subject of the Traditional Mass and now Medina calls for a Papal solution to the "dilemma" the two other Cardinals created. If this hypothesis is correct it certainly is an interesting technique but didn't someone once suggest that His followers were to be as "wise as serpents" etc ? This extensive interview with Cardinal Medina Estevez is an absolute bombshell as it gives a great insight to the future for the Latin Mass and indeed to the past in regards to what the Cardinal himself tried to do with the issuance of the third typical edition of the Novus Ordo Missal. The clear leitmotiv of Benedict XVI in recent weeks is re-echoed here: "unity in diversity". At one point the Cardinal states the close friendship that exists between he and the Pope. He suggests by this that he knows a good deal about what the Pope intends for the future as regards the Traditional Rite without "knowing" about it. This repeated "chatter" by three prominent Cardinals is Rome's way of sending up a trial balloon or smoke signals that something is about to break. A good deal of this interview has much to commend itself to our study and meditation. Having read the text in the original French I was absolutely not prepared for some of the revelations it contains. I offer my translation and thoughts on key sections below: |
| ? Fin août, Mgr Fellay a été reçu par Benoît XVI ; le synode des évêques sur l?eucharistie vient de prendre fin, et l?on sait qu?il y a été question de la messe de saint Pie V, même si le texte final ne s?en est pas fait l?écho? Y a-t-il, Eminence, une évolution de la question traditionnelle ? | - At the end of August Bishop Fellay was received by Benedict XVI; the synod of bishops on the Eucharist has just ended, and we know that the question of the Mass of St Pius V was raised, even if the final text makes no mention of it....Eminence, is there an evolution of the traditional question ? |
| ? La question n?est pas ressentie partout avec la même sensibilité. Il y a des personnes qui se disent en faveur d?une grande largeur de vues sur beaucoup de sujets et qui, par contre, se montrent très rigides vis-à-vis de l?emploi de la forme ancienne du rite romain. Il y a des personnes qui prônent une plus grande liberté dans l?Eglise, mais qui, à mon grand étonnement, ne veulent pas admettre une survivance plus large de la forme ancienne du rite romain. C?est curieux, car l?on tolère, bon gré mal gré, des usages abusifs dans la célébration de la forme récente du rite romain. Pour ma part je souhaite vivement que le Saint-Père fasse une déclaration dans le sens d?admettre une plus grande liberté dans l?usage de la forme ancienne du rite romain. | - The question isn't felt everywhere with the same sensibility. There are people who say that they are in favor of bigger views on many subjects and others who on the contrary show themselves to be very rigid as far as the use of the old Roman Rite is concerned. There are some who advocate a greater liberty in the Church, but who, to my great astonishment, do not want to allow a greater survival of the old form of the Roman Rite. It's curious that they tolerate, willingly or unwillingly abuses in the celebration of the recent form of the Roman Rite. For my part I energetically wish that the Holy Father would make a declaration in favor of allowing a greater freedom in the use of the old Roman Rite. |
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The Cardinal signals the need for the Pope to "tread carefully". The Cardinal returns to this theme below in more explicit terms and gives the reason why. He exposes the patent hypocrisy of those calling for all kinds of novelty and greater liberty of expression but not willing to be "benevolent" towards those attached to the old way. Ironically the greater plurality called for by the Second Vatican Council is stifled by some within the Church who act in the same authoritarian and dictatorial fashion that Vatican II was ostensibly called to reform and renew. The desire he has for the Pope to make a "statement" is of course setting the stage to do such a thing - a kind of bush-telegraphing for those who have "ears to hear". |
| ? Vous êtes venu, au printemps, consacrer l?abbatiale Notre-Dame de l?Annonciation. Vous êtes un peu un habitué de la maison. Vous étiez venu une première fois pour les trente ans du Barroux, puis pour la nouvelle Mère Abbesse, enfin pour le nouveau Père Abbé ; par ailleurs, vous célébrez volontiers, lorsqu?on vous le demande, selon l?ancien rite. Vous êtes, en quelque sorte, un récidiviste. Pour quelle raison le faites-vous ? | - You came in the Spring to the abbey of Our Lady of the Annunciation. You're quite a regular at the house. You came the first time for the thirtieth anniversary of Le Barroux, then for the (installation of the) new Mother Abbess, and last for the new Father Abbot; in addition, you willingly celebrate, when asked, the old Rite. You are, after a fashion a "recidivist". Why do you do that ? |
| ? Il y a plusieurs aspects à considérer. Le premier est que la forme ancienne du rite romain est le rite de mon ordination sacerdotale. Pendant une bonne quinzaine d?années, j?ai célébré l?ancienne messe et en ai apprécié les richesses ; ce qui ne signifie pas que je n?apprécie pas les richesses de la réforme décidée par le pape Paul VI. Deuxième point : ma nomination par le pape Jean-Paul II à la Commission pontificale Ecclesia Dei, qui a pour but d?aider les catholiques qui sont attachés à la forme ancienne du rite romain. C?est une raison qui me semble assez valable. Troisième raison enfin : il faut souligner que, dans l?Eglise, il y a beaucoup de formes de spiritualité légitimes, qui méritent tout le respect de tous les catholiques. Et cette diversité ne constitue pas une menace pour l?unité de l?Eglise, mais bien plutôt une richesse. Si donc, pour ces trois raisons, je peux rendre service aux communautés qui suivent la forme ancienne du rite romain, je le fais volontiers ; bien que je célèbre habituellement dans le nouveau rite, parce que j?ai perdu un peu, depuis une trentaine d?années, l?habitude de l?ancienne forme. Mais, de temps à autre, je célèbre volontiers dans le rite de saint Pie V. Cela fait partie de mes responsabilités. |
- There are several aspects to consider. The first is that the old form of the Roman Rite is the rite of my priestly ordination. I celebrated the old Mass for a good fifteen years and I appreciated its riches; that does not mean that I do not appreciate the riches of the reform determined by Pope Paul VI.
Finally the third reason: we must emphasize that, in the Church, there are many forms of legitimate spirituality which merit the respect of all Catholics. This diversity does not constitute a threat for the unity of the Church, but rather a richness. If, then, for these three reasons, I can be of service to the communities who follow the old form of the Roman Rite, I do it willingly; although I habitually celebrate in the new rite, because I have lost, after thirty odd years, a little familiarity with the old form. But from time to time, I willingly celebrate the rite of St Pius V. That is part of my duties. |
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An eloquent testimony to the power of the old rite to re-invigorate interest in itself. Also the theme of "unity in diversity" - no threat if seen as tending towards mutual harmony. |
| ? Mais vous le faites plus facilement que certains autres cardinaux? | - You do it more easily than certain other cardinals. |
| ? J?ai commencé à utiliser de temps à autre l?ancien rite après avoir été invité au Barroux. Avant cette première visite, je ne l?avais plus célébré. Après cette visite ? j?étais alors préfet de la Congrégation pour le culte divin ?, il y a eu pas mal de réactions très négatives. Certains ont même manqué gravement de respect dû à ma personne et à un rite qu?accepte l?Eglise. Et c?est à partir de ce moment-là que j?ai recommencé à rendre, volontiers, ce petit service. | - I began to use the old rite from time to time after having been invited to Le Barroux. Before that first visit I no longer celebrated it. After this visit - I was at the time the Prefect for the Congregation of Divine Worship - there were quite a bit of negative reactions. Some even lacked grave respect due to my person and to a rite which the Church accepts. And it was from that moment that I began again to willingly offer this little service. |
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The Cardinal fell foul of insults for offering the old Mass - but this encouraged him to be more favorable to the Old Mass than previously ! |
| ? Sans difficulté particulière ? | - Without any particular difficulty ? |
| ? Non. Je dois dire qu?il y a certaines prières de l?ancien rite, notamment les prières de l?offertoire, qui me semblent d?une richesse vraiment extraordinaire, et qu?on aurait dû conserver, au moins, à mon avis, comme une alternative. J?ai essayé de le faire lors de la publication de la troisième édition du missel romain, mais je me suis heurté à des oppositions assez fortes? et j?ai dû y renoncer. Sans revenir, bien sûr, sur mon impression qu?il y a de très belles choses qu?il aurait fallu garder, pour la richesse de la vie spirituelle, et surtout parce qu?on y souligne beaucoup le caractère sacrificiel de la sainte Messe. Car les trois aspects de l?Eucharistie : le sacrifice, la présence réelle et la communion sont reliés entre eux, et le premier d?entre eux est l?aspect sacrificiel. C?est de l?aspect sacrificiel que découle la communion ; et c?est la présence réelle qui donne le sens le plus profond à l?offrande sacrificielle. Je suis très sensible à cet aspect depuis ma jeunesse. Je me souviens que le premier article théologique que j?ai écrit après mon ordination sacerdotale était sur la messe comme sacrifice, il y a une cinquantaine d?années. C?est la raison pour laquelle j?ai énormément apprécié la dernière encyclique de Jean-Paul II sur la messe comme sacrifice : Ecclesia de Eucharistia, où le mot sacrifice apparaît au moins 42 fois. |
- No. I must say that there are certain prayers of the old Rite, notably the offertory prayers, which seem to me to possess a truly extraordinary richness, which ought at least, in my opinion, to have been kept as an alternative. I tried in the publication of the third edition of the Roman Missal but was blocked by quite strong opposition...and I had to give it up. Without backtracking, of course, on my impression that there are some beautiful things that it would have been necessary to keep for the richness of the spiritual life and above all because they greatly highlight the sacrificial character of the Holy Mass Because the three aspects of the Eucharist: the sacrifice, the Real Presence and the Communion are interlinked, and the primary one of them is the sacrificial aspect. Communion flows from the sacrificial aspect; and it is the Real Presence that gives the deeper meaning to the sacrificial offering. I have always been very aware of this aspect since my youth. I recall that the first theological article that I wrote after my priestly ordination was on the Mass as a sacrifice more than 50 years ago. That's why I enormously appreciated the last encyclical of John Paul II on the Mass as a sacrifice Ecclesia de Eucharistia, where the word "sacrifice" appears at least 42 times. |
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The first bombshell - as a result of celebrating the Old Mass, the Cardinal tried to re-insert the Tridentine offertory prayers as an option in the third typical edition of the Novus Ordo Missae. Opposition - yes but now that he makes it public it wouldn't surprise me if in a future revision that option will be included. |
| ? Dans un entretien que vous avez accordé il y a quelques mois à La Nef et à L?Homme nouveau, vous évoquez les progrès réalisés depuis le Motu proprio Ecclesia Dei. Est-ce une atmosphère d?apaisement ou une réalité concrète ? | - In an interview you granted to La Nef and then to L'Homme nouveau you brought up the progress that has taken place since the motu proprio Ecclesia Dei. Is there an atmosphere of appeasement or a concrete reality ? |
| ? Il y a un problème psychologique ? jusqu?à un certain point. Certains pensent que l?attachement à l?ancien rite peut aller de pair avec un refus de l?enseignement du concile Vatican II, et à l?affirmation que le nouveau rite est hérétique et invalide. Mais cet excès n?est pas le fait de tous ceux qui sont attachés à l?ancien rite, et même pas de la plupart d?entre eux. Si l?on arrive à surmonter cette difficulté psychologique, je crois que, petit à petit, on va avoir une acceptation pacifique. Et même joyeuse : la solution que le cardinal Castrillon Hoyos a trouvée pour Campos a été un exemple extraordinairement positif. Une communauté avec une tradition particulière et une hiérarchie tout à fait reconnue, et qui constitue une expérience et un fruit valables. | - There is a psychological problem - to a certain point. Some think that an attachment to the old rite might go hand in hand with a refusal of the teaching of the Second Vatican council and the affirmation that the new rite is heretical or invalid. But this excess is not the case with all those who are attached to the old rite and not even the majority of them. If we are able to overcome this psychological difficulty, I think that, little by little, we are going to have a peaceful acceptance (of the old rite). And even a joyous one: the solution that Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos came up with for Campos has been an extraordinarily positive example. A community with a particular tradition and a completely recognized hierarchy constitutes a valuable fruit and experience. |
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This harps back to Cardinal Castrillon's recent interview where he says that the liturgy should not become a battleground. The Novus Ordo is here and it isn't going away any time soon. The best Traditionalists can hope for is for is a gradual Tridentinization. Hey I mean this is how they Novus Ordo-ized the Traditional Missal we can begin by reversing the direction. Do we really think the Church can snap back to Tiara land and Sede-gestatorias overnight ? Wake up this is 2005 not 1955 ! |
| ? C?est en tout cas le sens de votre action, et votre conviction? | - Is this in every case the sense of your activity and conviction ? |
| ? Oui. Dans le rite de saint Pie V, il faudrait accepter cependant quelque chose du rite nouveau : par exemple, retoucher le calendrier. Il y a de nouveaux saints qui sont tout à fait importants et qui n?apparaissent pas dans l?ancien rite : le padre Pio, les martyrs du Vietnam, des Philippines, de Chine, du Mexique, qui sont des piliers de ces chrétientés. Il y a aussi la question du lectionnaire. Le nouveau lectionnaire, à mon avis, constitue une richesse. Au moment de Vatican II, un évêque chilien m?avait demandé ce qu?il pouvait proposer au Concile, et je lui avais répondu : un emploi beaucoup plus large de l?Ecriture sainte. Cela ne touche en rien à la richesse, à la tradition de la forme ancienne du rite romain. |
- Yes. In the rite of St Pius V, it would be necessary to accept, however, some aspects of the new rite, for example updating the calendar. There are the new saints who are of great importance and who are not found in the old rite: Padre Pio, the Martyrs of Vietnam, the Philippines, China, Mexico who are pillars of these Christian nations. There is also the question of the lectionary. The new lectionary, in my opinion, constitutes a richness. At Vatican II a Chilean bishop had asked me what he could propose to the Council and I had replied: a wider use of Holy Scripture. This doesn't affect in any way the richness or the tradition of the ancient form of the Roman Rite. |
| ? Pour ce qui est du calendrier, le pontificat de Jean-Paul II a été une telle source de nouveaux saints et bienheureux qu?on ne saurait tous les intégrer? | - As regards the calendar, the pontificate of John Paul II has been such a source for new saints and blesseds that we wouldn't be able to integrate them all... |
| ? Il faut distinguer les saints et les bienheureux déclarés officiellement tels et insérés dans le martyrologe romain, soit à peu près 7 000 noms. Dont 25 % sont dus à Jean-Paul II ! Et ceux qui sont intégrés au calendrier universel. Il n?est pas question qu?ils y soient tous. Mais quelques-uns qui sont des saints emblématiques. Par exemple, pour l?Amérique latine, saint Juan Diego, le voyant de Guadalupe? Tous ne peuvent pas l?être, mais une révision du calendrier romain s?impose, me semble-t-il. | - We must distinguish between the officially declared saints and blesseds who have been inserted into the Roman Martyrology around about 7000 names of which 25 % are the result of John Paul II and between those who have been incorporated into the universal calendar. There is no question of incorporating all of them. But some are emblematic saints. For example, for Latin America, Saint Juan Diego the Seer of Guadalupe....not all could be included, but a revision of the Roman Calendar seems necessary it seems to me. |
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The revision of the calendar is an issue of some merit. I particularly like St Martin de Porres and St Peter Eymard (founder of the Blessed Sacrament Fathers). Both of these were canonized by John XXIII but since the Council was in the offing new office and missal propers were never drawn up to reflect these Saints. Logically a revision of the calendar to include the major new Saints is something that would have to be considered. Liturgy is not some ossified monolith. Liturgy didn't cease at some arbitrary date like 1953 for example - it, like the Church, continues to develop. This is the process of organic development that has always happened to the Missal. The problem with the Novus Ordo is that it cannot be demonstrated to be an organic development from the Missal of St Pius V. |
| ? On a parfois l?impression d?une difficulté de compréhension : sensibilité et discipline, d?un côté ; dogme et théologie, d?autre part. N?y a-t-il pas une difficulté à s?entendre au même niveau ? | - There is sometimes the impression of a difficulty of comprehension: sensitivity and discipline, on one side; dogma and theology, on the other. Isn't there a difficulty of getting along on the same level? |
| ? Personnellement, je crois qu?il y a eu dans la théologie catholique certains progrès tout à fait orthodoxes qui n?ont pas été assimilés par certains catholiques traditionnels. Par exemple, l?exégèse a produit des éléments valables ? et certaines positions qui ne sont pas acceptables. Parfois, on a refusé tout progrès, et on voit des hérésies partout, alors qu?il est question de véritables progrès, ou de simples opinions qui ne constituent pas une menace pour l?unité ou l?orthodoxie catholique. Certaines publications soupçonnent tout ce qui est dit dans l?Eglise catholique d?hérésie, ou d?infidélité à l?orthodoxie. Même les écrits du cardinal Ratzinger y sont farouchement critiqués ; des publications où un document tellement orthodoxe comme Dominus Jesus n?a pas été bien reçu ; où ce joyau d?orthodoxie catholique qu?est l?encyclique Ecclesia de Eucharistia n?a pas été bien reçu parce qu?il y manquait le mot propitiation. Or il faut bien comprendre ce mot que je sais bien avoir été employé par le concile de Trente, et qui appartient à la doctrine catholique : car, dans un sens rigide, il s?agirait d?apaiser un Dieu enragé ; ce qui est une vision tout à fait anthropomorphique de Dieu qui est avant tout amour et miséricorde. Je crois que le sens profond de la « propitiation » pourrait se rendre par « réparation », « grâce de conversion » et même « purification ». Au fond c?est l?amour vers Dieu qui donne le sens profond à l?attitude vraiment religieuse. Ce type de questions empoisonne les discussions. |
- Personally, I believe that there was in catholic theology certain completely orthodox progress which was not assimilated by certain traditional Catholics. For example, the scriptural interpretation produced valid elements - and there are certain positions which are not acceptable. Sometimes, any progress was refused, and one sees heresies everywhere, whereas it is a question of true progress, or simple opinions which do not constitute a threat for unity or catholic orthodoxy. Certain publications suspect all that is said in the catholic Church as heresy, or infidelity to orthodoxy. Even the writings of Cardinal Ratzinger are savagely criticized there; publications where a such an orthodox document like Dominus Jesus was not received; where this jewel of catholic orthodoxy that is the encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia was not well received because it lacked (i.e. omitted) the word propitiation there. However it is necessary to rightly understand this word which I know was rightly used by the council of Trent, and which belongs to Catholic doctrine: because, if used in a rigid way, it would be a question of appeasing an enraged God; which leads to a completely anthropomorphic vision of God who is before all else love and mercy. I believe that the deeper sense of "propitiation" would include the notion of "reparation", "the grace of conversion" and even "purification". At the bottom it is the love towards God who gives the deeper sense to the true religious attitude. These type of questions poison the discussions. |
| ? Cela peut être dépassé ? | - Can that be overcome ? |
| ? Je le crois ; mais je crains que certaines personnes n?y arrivent que difficilement? | - I believe so; but I fear that certain people arrive there only with difficulty... |
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Ah, yes ! How very true - heresies everywhere and those saying this are like the proverbial blind leading the blind. |
| ? On n?a pas toujours l?impression que les documents récents, notamment sur les normes liturgiques, aient eu un impact réel, notamment en Europe. Est-ce un effet de l?habitude de faire à sa façon ? Y a-t-il un moyen de faire admettre ces textes ? | - One does not always have the impression that the recent documents, in particular on the liturgical norms, had a real impact, especially in Europe. Is this the effect of the custom of doing one's own thing ? Is it possible to make people accept these texts? |
| ? Vers la fin de mon mandat comme préfet de la Congrégation pour le culte divin, j?avais commencé à ramasser les expériences de partout dans le monde sur l?ars celebrandi, la manière correcte, exacte, élégante de célébrer la liturgie de l?Eglise. Or la liturgie est un acte public, et non privé qui comme tel dépendrait des impressions ou des goûts personnels. Le ministre de l?Eucharistie est un serviteur de l?Eglise, et doit donc célébrer comme l?Eglise le veut. D?ailleurs, la réforme liturgique a établi certaines normes qui permettent des alternatives, laissent un espace prudent aux circonstances, aux choix du prêtre et de la communauté. Pour le mariage, le rituel comprend une trentaine de textes bibliques que les époux peuvent choisir. Il n?y a pas un seul schéma rigide à appliquer également partout. Même pour l?échange du consentement, il y a deux manières de faire. Pour la sainte messe, vous avez trois formules pour l?acte pénitentiel au début ; la possibilité d?employer le Credo de Nicée, ou celui des apôtres ; la possibilité assez large, d?après l?Institution générale du Missel romain, de distribuer la sainte communion sous les deux espèces? Donc, dans les textes officiels, il y a des possibilités très intéressantes, très pédagogiques que le prêtre peut choisir, ayant comme but toujours le bien spirituel du peuple, et pas du tout son goût personnel. Dans la forme nouvelle du rite romain, on a au moins huit canons de la Messe? Cela correspond à un désir d?avoir des possibilités plus larges de changements raisonnables. Mais dans certains domaines on passe parfois outre les règles de la célébration digne comme l?Eglise l?a établie. Par exemple, l?emploi obligatoire des ornements, de tous les ornements prévus. Ou bien des défauts « petits », comme la mauvaise habitude de laisser les burettes sur l?autel. L?autel n?est pas une table où poser quoi que ce soit ; l?autel est la table du sacrifice. Donc, sur l?autel, le calice, l?hostie, les chandeliers, le missel et la croix ; et ça suffit. Le reste n?est pas homogène avec la dignité et la noblesse de l?autel comme partie d?un ensemble liturgique. |
- Towards the end of my mandate as prefect of the Congregation for the divine worship, I had started to collect the experiments throughout the world on the ars celebrandi, the correct, exact and elegant way of celebrating the liturgy of the Church. Moreover the liturgy is a public act, and not a private one which as such would depend on personal impressions or tastes. The Minister of the Eucharist is a servant of the Church, and must thus celebrate as the Church wants it. Moreover, the liturgical reform established certain norms which allow alternatives, and they leave a prudent latitude for the circumstances and the choice of the priest and the community. For marriage, the ritual contains about thirty biblical texts that the bride and groom can choose. There is not one rigid schema alone to apply equally everywhere. Even for the exchange of the assent, there are two ways of doing it. For Holy Mass, you have three formulas for the penitential rite at the beginning; with the possibility of using the Nicene Creed, or that of the Apostles; the rather broad possibility, according to the general Institution of the Roman Missal, to distribute Holy Communion under two species... Therefore, in the official texts, there are very interesting pedagogical possibilities that the priest can choose, whilst always having as a goal the spiritual good of the people, and not his personal taste. In the new form of the Roman Rite, there are at least eight canons of the Mass... That corresponds to a desire to have broader possibilities of reasonable changes. But in certain areas one often exceeds the rules of the worthy celebration which the Church has established. For example, obligatory use of vestments, that is all the vestments required. Or else there are "small" defects, like the bad habit of leaving the cruets on the altar. The altar is not a table where you can put just anything; the altar is the table of sacrifice. Therefore, all that is needed on the altar is the chalice, the host, candlesticks, the missal and the cross. Anything else doesn't agree with the dignity and the nobility of the altar as a liturgical whole. |
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This says nothing about the Traditional Mass - just the abuses in the Novus Ordo. |
| ? L?Europe souffre d?un manque manifeste de prêtres. Quelle est l?explication de cette hémorragie ? | - Europe suffers from a manifest lack of priests. What is the explanation for this hemorrhage ? |
| ? Je pense qu?il faut s?interroger. La situation est très différente d?un pays à l?autre, même en Amérique latine. Je ne parle pas du Chili d?où je viens. Mais regardez le Mexique : un pays qui a bénéficié de l?apparition de Guadalupe ; un pays qui a eu depuis le XVIe siècle des martyrs, une constante pendant tous les siècles ; un pays qui bénéficie ? je ne me trompe pas dans le nombre? ? de trois millions d?hommes qui participent à l?adoration nocturne : trois millions de Mexicains qui se lèvent la nuit pour adorer le Saint Sacrement ; un pays où la piété populaire est très vivante, appuyée par les prêtres ; un pays où on a, certes, des péchés, mais où les gens se confessent ; un pays où il y a des actes, voire des habitudes contraires à la chasteté, mais qui sont considérés comme des choses négatives, comme des péchés. En Europe, il y a dans certains endroits une faiblesse de la foi, il y a une désaffection vis-à-vis de l?Eglise, on a perdu le sens du sacré, la chasteté n?est plus une valeur? Aux Etats-Unis, une association de jeunes compte un demi-million d?adhérents, qui promettent d?arriver vierges au mariage. Il y a donc de quoi s?interroger pour une plus grande liberté de la forme ancienne du rite romain Le diocèse de Guadalajara, où il y a des adorateurs nocturnes, où il y a une liste d?une centaine de béatifications de martyrs de la dernière persécution, a un grand séminaire avec 500 séminaristes, et un petit séminaire avec 700 séminaristes. Je me suis rendu au Congrès eucharistique de Guadalajara, le jour de la procession de la Vierge de Zapopan, il y avait sur les dix kilomètres entre les deux villes ? dix kilomètres ? quatre millions de personnes. Cela veut dire quelque chose? |
- I think that we need to look into this. The situation is very different from one country to another, even in Latin America. I do not speak about Chile from where I come. But look at Mexico: a country which has benefited from the apparition of Guadalupe; a country which has had since the 16th century its martyrs, a constant throughout the centuries; a country which profits - if I am not mistaken in the number... - from three million men who take part in nocturnal adoration: three million Mexicans who rise at night to adore the Blessed Sacrament; a country where popular piety is very alive, supported by the priests; a country where one has, certainly, sins, but where people go to confession ; a country where there are acts, even habits against chastity, but which are still seen as negative things, as sins. In Europe, there is in certain places a weakness of faith, there is a disaffection with respect to the Church, the sense of the sacred has been lost, chastity is no longer prized... In the United States there is an association of young people made up of a half-million members, who promise to remain a virgin until marriage. There is thus good reason to ask for a greater freedom for the old form of the Roman Rite The diocese of Guadalajara, where there are nocturnal adorers, where there is a roll of a hundred beatifications of martyrs during the last persecution, has a major seminary with 500 seminarians, and a minor seminary with 700 seminarians. I went to the Eucharistic Congress at Guadalajara, the day of the procession of the Virgin of Zapopan, there were four million people on the ten kilometers between the two cities - ten kilometers ! That tells you something... |
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Some express the belief that the Church is dead. Clearly there are problems in some areas, but not in others. Perhaps the lessons of success can be replicated elsewhere ? |
| ? D?où vient la responsabilité en Europe ? | - What's to blame for the crisis in Europe? |
| ? Il y a plusieurs responsabilités, et on ne saurait les établir de manière mathématique. C?est très difficile. Mais il y a un ensemble de facteurs, parmi lesquels la faiblesse de la foi, tout d?abord, et le mépris de la chasteté, constituent des sources très importantes de la situation. Saint Paul le dit : « Le juste vit de la foi » ; et il est impossible, sans la foi, d?être agréable à Dieu. Et les martyrs : on va béatifier bientôt un groupe de martyrs mexicains. On conserve la lettre d?un garçon, fusillé à 14 ans. La veille, on lui a permis d?écrire une lettre à sa mère, dans laquelle il dit : « Maman, jamais il n?a été plus facile d?arriver au ciel qu?aujourd?hui : je serai fusillé demain. Je vous embrasse. Votre fils. » Si quelqu?un voit comme une véritable joie d?être fusillé pour arriver au ciel, on est dans une autre atmosphère. Mais saint Augustin le dit dans un de ses sermons : on pense au ciel comme quelque chose qui devrait arriver le plus tard possible ! | - There are several, and one could not establish them in a mathematical way. It is very difficult. But there is a whole host of factors, among which the weakness of faith, first of all, and the contempt of chastity, they constitute the most important sources of the situation. Saint Paul says it: "the just live by faith"; and it is impossible, without the faith, to be pleasing to God. And martyrs: we are soon going to beatify a group of Mexican martyrs. We have the letter of a boy, shot at 14 years. The day before, he was allowed to write a letter to his mother, in which he says: "Mama, it has never been easier to go to heaven today: I will be shot tomorrow. I kiss you. Your son." If one were to see that it is a true joy to be shot in order to go to heaven, one is in another atmosphere. But Saint Augustine says it in one of his sermons: one thinks of heaven as something where one should arrive as soon as possible! |
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John Paul II went much further than this - he wished Europe to lose its materialistic attitudes, to be plunged again into poverty so that it would again fall down on its knees. |
| ? Qu?en est-il alors de l?état de nécessité qu?invoque la Fraternité Saint Pie X pour adopter sa position ? | - What about the state of necessity which Fraternity of St Pius X uses to defend its position ? |
| ? Il faut reconnaître dans la Fraternité Saint Pie X le soin de conserver certaines valeurs qui sont réelles. Ce que je ne peux pas accepter, c?est le refus de l?autorité légitime de l?Eglise, et le refus de la solution proposée du temps du serviteur de Dieu, le Pape Jean-Paul II, par l?entremise du cardinal Ratzinger justement, solution qui était un gage d?équilibre, d?orthodoxie, de sincérité. Certaines personnes vont jusqu?à considérer que le siège apostolique est vacant. Une brochure publiée par la Fraternité lors du Jubilé fait état de 260 papes fidèles à la Tradition, donc les quatre derniers ne le sont pas, et il n?y est jamais question du nom du pape du moment. Si on en arrive à ce point-là, les choses deviennent extrêmement difficiles. | - It is necessary to recognize in the Fraternity of Saint Pius X the care to preserve certain values which are real. What I cannot accept, is the refusal of the legitimate authority of the Church, and the refusal of the solution suggested at the time by the servant of God, Pope John-Paul II, through the mediation of Cardinal Ratzinger a solution which was precisely a pledge of balance, orthodoxy and sincerity. Certain people go as far as considering that the apostolic seat is vacant. A booklet published by the Fraternity at the time of the Jubilee states of the 260 popes faithful to the Tradition the last four are not, and there is no question of the name of the current pope. If one goes that far, things become extremely difficult. |
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The sede-mentality - putting the cart before the horse - the clergy and laity judge - the Pope is condemned. Is this how the de Ecclesia tracts in the dogmatic treatises speak of the constitution of the Church ? |
| ? Il y a la question ? centrale, et que vous avez évoquée plus haut ? dans ces discussions de la libéralisation de la messe dite traditionnelle, qui, sans être interdite, demande à être autorisée? | - Then there is the question - the central one, and one you raised earlier - in these discussions of the liberalization of so-called traditional mass, which, without being forbidden, needs to be authorized... |
| ? J?estime personnellement qu?on ne peut pas prouver que l?ancien rite ait été abrogé. Il y a de bonnes raisons pour affirmer qu?il est encore en vigueur. D?autres estiment le contraire. Mais, puisqu?il y a doute, on devrait admettre la liberté. Il y a néanmoins un problème pastoral, qui mérite une attention soucieuse, car, si dans une paroisse, on a des rites différents sans aucun ordre, cela peut créer une certaine confusion chez les fidèles. Il faudrait avoir une certaine flexibilité d?une part, et un bon ordre de l?autre. Je pense que l?Indult Ecclesia Dei doit être perçu comme un essai d?établir certains critères pour le bon ordre ecclésiastique. Je pense d?ailleurs que si le Saint-Père voulait autoriser l?utilisation générale du rite ancien, les prêtres qui voudraient le célébrer seraient peu nombreux : peut-être quelques centaines au plus. La généralité des prêtres continueraient à célébrer dans le rite du Pape Paul VI. Quitte à souhaiter, pour ma part, que certains éléments éliminés du rite ancien deviennent des alternatives dans le rite nouveau ; par exemple, les prières de l?offertoire, et la prière à la fin de la messe, comme offrande du sacrifice à la Sainte Trinité ? des prières extrêmement belles et pédagogiques à mon avis. |
- Personally I hold that one cannot prove that the old rite was abrogated. There are good reasons to affirm that it is still in force. Others hold the contrary. But, since there is doubt, one should admit freedom. There is nevertheless a pastoral problem, which deserves careful attention, because, if in a parish, there are different rites without order, that can create a certain confusion for the faithful. It would be necessary to have a certain flexibility on the one hand, and a good order on the other. I think that Ecclesia Dei Indult ought to be seen as a test to establish certain criteria for good ecclesiastical order. I think besides that if the Holy Father wanted to authorize the general use of the old rite, the priests who would like to celebrate it would be very few: perhaps a few hundred at the most. The majority of priests would continue to celebrate the rite of Pope Paul VI. It remains to be hoped, for my part, that certain elements eliminated from the old rite should become alternatives in the new rite; for example, the offertory prayers, and the prayer at the end of the mass, like the offering of the sacrifice to the Holy Trinity - extremely beautiful and pedagogical prayers in my opinion. |
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Another appeal to common sense - the Old Mass was not abrogated but has fallen into "disuse". The "disuse" can always be taken up again but... |
| ? Vous dites qu?assez peu de prêtres reviendraient à l?ancien rite. Est-ce un sentiment, ou cela se fonde-t-il sur quelque chose de plus tangible ? | - You say that relatively few priests would return to the old rite. Is this a feeling, or is that based on something more tangible? |
| ? Je crois que les prêtres, comme tout le monde, ont un sens pratique très aigu. Or le rite ancien est plus complexe ; le rite ancien est, si vous permettez le mot, en désuétude : on ne le voit que très rarement, on n?y est pas habitué, et chacun veut continuer à faire ce qu?il est habitué à faire. Donc je pense que si l?on donnait la possibilité générale de célébrer, quitte à avoir besoin d?un certain ordre dans les diocèses, les prêtres qui voudraient célébrer dans l?ancien rite seraient très peu nombreux. C?est mon impression, mais je peux me tromper. | - I believe that priests, like everyone, have an acute sense of the practical. Now the old rite is more complex; the old rite has, if you allow the word, fallen into disuse: it is only seen very seldom, people are not used to it, and everyone wants to continue to do what he is used to doing. Thus I think that if one gave the general possibility to celebrate, with the need for a certain order in the dioceses, the priests who would like to celebrate in the old rite would be very few. It is my impression, but I can be mistaken. |
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....few new rite priests would really be motivated to take up the old rite again - a point I have made before. |
| ? Vous évoquez la complexité de l?ancien rite? | - You mentioned the complexity of the old rite... |
| ? Les rubriques de l?ancien rite étaient extrêmement complexes. Par exemple, il y avait nombre de génuflexions ; il y avait nombre de signes de la croix sur le calice et sur l?hostie ; il y avait des positions qui étaient vraiment très rigides. Aujourd?hui, les gens sont habitués à des manières plus larges, qui ne constituent pas à mon avis un manque de respect au Très Saint Sacrement ; et donc les gens ne voudraient pas de bon gré revenir à des rubriques tellement rigides ? des rubriques d?ailleurs respectables. Moi-même, lorsque je célèbre l?ancien rite, il m?arrive souvent d?oublier que je dois tenir les doigts joints, parce que je suis habitué à célébrer la messe d?après la forme nouvelle. |
- The rubrics of the old rite were extremely complex. For example, there were a number of genuflections; there were a number of signs of the cross over the chalice and the host; there were positions which were really very rigid. Today, people are accustomed to broader gestures, which do not constitute in my opinion a lack of respect to the Most Blessed Sacrament; and thus people would not want to willingly return to such rigid rubrics - rubrics which nevertheless are to be held in high regard. Even myself, when I celebrate the old rite, it often happens I forget that I must keep the fingers joined, because I am accustomed to celebrating the mass according to the new form. |
| ? Les Orientaux ont, eux, conservé cette prolifération des signes de croix et autres? | - The Eastern rites, have also preserved this proliferation of the signs of cross and so forth... |
| ? Ce n?est pas exactement le même cas, parce que le rite byzantin est un seul rite, et a été toujours le même ; il n?y en a pas deux formes. Tandis que, pour le rite romain, il y a deux formes. Chez nous, les gens sont habitués à la forme simplifiée. |
- It is not exactly the same case, because the Byzantine rite is a single rite, and was always the same; there are not two forms of them. While, for the Roman rite, there are two forms. For us, people are accustomed to the simplified form. |
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The old rubrics are too rigid.... but they are to be held in high regard...hmmm! |
| ? Venons-en aux événements récents qui se sont accélérés ces derniers mois : la mort de soeur Lucie, celle de Jean-Paul II, et l?élection de Benoît XVI? Certains se sont étonnés qu?il ne cite pas Vatican II lors du sermon de sa messe d?intronisation? Pensez-vous que le nouveau Souverain Pontife sera une sorte de prolongation du cardinal Ratzinger ? | - Let us come to the recent events which accelerated these last months: the death of Sister Lucy, that of John-Paul II, and the election of Benedict XVI... Some were astonished that he did not quote Vatican II at the time of the sermon of his installation Mass.. Do you think that new Sovereign pontiff will be a kind of prolongation of Cardinal Ratzinger ? |
| ? On ne peut pas tout dire partout. Si le cardinal Ratzinger n?a pas cité Vatican II, cela ne veut pas dire qu?il ne l?apprécie pas ; je suis sûr que Benoît XVI a accueilli avec joie Vatican II, auquel il a participé comme théologien. Mais chaque Pontife est différent de l?autre ; il ne peut être la continuité totale de son prédécesseur. Si vous prenez Léon XIII par rapport à Pie IX, c?est un changement ; si vous prenez Pie X par rapport à Léon XIII, c?est un changement ; si vous prenez Jean XXIII par rapport à Pie XII, grand changement. Le changement est une chose humaine, et qui fait partie, je le pense, de la providence de Dieu. Chaque personne a reçu de Dieu des dons, des charismes, qui constituent une richesse pour l?Eglise. Donc Benoît XVI va être lui-même. Mais il a déclaré une chose très importante, il a dit : je suis le serviteur de la foi de l?Eglise, pas de mes idées personnelles. Il l?a dit au moins deux fois, notamment au Latran. C?est capital, parce que le Pape est le gardien de la foi, de la foi catholique, de la foi de l?Eglise, et s?il a quelques idées personnelles discutables, il va se garder de les proposer comme la foi de l?Eglise. Même si le Pape a un diagnostic personnel sur une situation, celui-ci peut être acceptable, mais pas obligatoire pour tout le monde. J?ai une confiance totale dans le fait que Benoît XVI va être un homme extrêmement fidèle à la tradition catholique et que, comme serviteur du ministère pétrinien, il va garder soigneusement la foi de l?Eglise, et faire tout ce qui est possible pour maintenir et pour développer les certitudes de l?orthodoxie qui constitue le pilier fondamental de l?unité de l?Eglise. |
- One cannot say everything all the time. If Cardinal Ratzinger did not quote Vatican II, that does mean that he does not appreciate it; I am sure that Benedict XVI welcomed Vatican II with joy, he took part in it as a theologian. But each Pontiff is different from another; he cannot be the total continuity of his predecessor. If you take Leo XIII compared to Pius IX, there is a change; if you take Pius X compared to Leo XIII, there is a change; if you take John XXIII compared to Pius XII, there is a great change. The change is a human thing, and which forms part, I think, of the providence of God. Each person received gifts from God, charisms, which constitute a richness for the Church. Thus Benedict XVI will be himself. But he declared a very important thing, he said: "I am the servant of the faith of the Church, not of my personal ideas." He said it at least twice, in particular at the Lateran. It is of capital importance, because the Pope is the guardian of the faith, of the catholic faith, of the faith of the Church, and if he has some debatable personal ideas, he will take care not to propose them as though they were the faith of the Church. Even if the Pope has a personal diagnosis on a situation, this one can be acceptable, but not obligatory for everyone. I have a total confidence in the fact that Benedict XVI will be a man extremely faithful to catholic tradition and that, as a servant of the Petrine ministry, he will keep the faith of the Church carefully, and do all that is possible to maintain and develop the certainties of orthodoxy which constitute the fundamental pillar of the unity of the Church. |
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Ratzinger will be his own man but always as the "servant of the faith of the Church" ie. he will try to keep everyone on board. |
| ? Vous évoquez votre très longue connaissance du cardinal Ratzinger. On a profité de son élection pour ressortir certains jugements de l?époque où il était perçu comme réformateur ; aujourd?hui, il est catalogué conservateur. Y a-t-il une évolution, ou cela n?a-t-il pas de sens réel ? | - You mention your very long knowledge of Cardinal Ratzinger. Since his election we have been able to make certain judgments from the time when he was perceived as a reformer to today where he is seen as a conservative ? Has there been an evolution, or is this an illusion ? |
| ? Au moment du concile Vatican II, il y avait un courant qui souhaitait certains changements dans l?Eglise, changements justes et justifiés, à mon avis. Ils se sont surtout exprimés dans la Constitution dogmatique sur l?Eglise, dans la Constitution dogmatique sur la Divine Révélation, dans la Constitution sur la liturgie, et dans la Constitution pastorale sur l?Eglise dans le monde d?aujourd?hui. Ces quatre documents qui constituent l?ossature du Concile ? son centre étant Lumen Gentium ? reflètent le sain désir d?incorporer dans l?Eglise les développements d?une pensée qui avait ouvert des horizons plus larges, mais parfaitement orthodoxes. Si je peux prendre l?exemple d?une personnalité qui représente, à mon avis, le sens le plus pur de ces développements positifs, c?est le cardinal Henri de Lubac. Je l?ai connu personnellement ; il m?a traité comme un ami ? même s?il y avait un décalage d?âge considérable entre lui et moi ; je lui rendais visite le plus souvent possible. Lubac était un homme absolument orthodoxe. |
- At the time of the Second Vatican council, there were some (a current) who wanted certain changes in the Church. These changes were right and justified, in my opinion. They were especially expressed in the dogmatic Constitution on the Church, in the dogmatic Constitution on the Divine Revelation, in the Constitution on the liturgy, and in the pastoral Constitution on the Church in the world of today. These four documents which constitute the frame work of the Council - its center being Lumen Gentium - reflect the healthy desire to incorporate in the Church the developments of thought which had opened broader horizons, but perfectly orthodox ones. If I can take the example of a person who represents, in my opinion, the purest direction of these positive developments, it is Cardinal Henri de Lubac. I knew him personally; he treated me as a friend - even if there was a considerable age gap between him and me; I visited him as often as possible. Lubac was an absolutely orthodox man. However, some people cast suspicions on his orthodoxy, when he was recognized by the Church in a shining way when the Pope made him a cardinal. I believe that Cardinal Ratzinger represents exactly the position which Cardinal de Lubac had. Among works of Cardinal de Lubac, there is a really outstanding work: Meditation on the Church, which is really one of his major works. And I believe that the Meditation on the Church represents exactly the basis of Cardinal Ratzinger's thought. As it also represented that of Cardinal - even if he did not receive the hat... - Urs von Balthasar. Therefore, after the Council, there were people who, calling upon the spirit of the Council, went much beyond the Council and proposed unacceptable things. These people-are not the prolongation of the thought of Ratzinger; they are people who deviated. It is the case of the group - an extreme one- of the liberation theologians; people who preached the ordination of the women; people who would like to change from top to bottom the morals of the Church concerning sexuality, etc. However, in my opinion, any catholic must be a conservative, because it is necessary to preserve the deposit of the faith. It is what Saint Paul says: "Depositum custodi." If somebody does not want to keep the deposit of the faith, he is no longer. |
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This answer evades the central question of evolution in the thought of Cardinal Ratzinger since the council. Avery Cardinal Dulles has already addressed that issue in a speech he gave at Fordham University last month in which he stated that Cardinal Ratzinger has indeed evolved in his theology and on the very 4 documents Cardinal Medina refers to above. I detect an interesting strategy developing: key cardinals are stating publicly what the new Pope thinks and the Vatican is gauging the reactions before proceeding. |
| ? Le cardinal Ratzinger a, lui aussi, célébré selon l?ancien rite. Peut-on penser que Benoît XVI manifestera la même bienveillance ? | - Cardinal Ratzinger has also celebrated according to the old rite. Can one think that Benedict XVI will express the same benevolence? |
| ? Je ne sais pas ce que le Saint-Père va faire, parce que cela dépend des circonstances et de la collaboration qu?il trouve. Mais je me permets de vous signaler que le Pape m?a nommé son envoyé spécial ? on réserve le terme « légat » pour le cardinal secrétaire d?Etat ? pour la bénédiction de l?abbatiale des bénédictines du Barroux. Je suis venu au nom du Pape, et pas seulement parce que je suis favorable à la situation du Barroux. Le Pape a montré sa bienveillance. J?ai été investi de la représentation du Souverain Pontife. Mais ma nomination n?a pas été publiée dans l?Osservatore Romano? |
- I do not know what the Holy Father will do, because that depends on the circumstances and the collaboration which he finds. But I allow myself to tell you that the Pope named me his special envoy (one reserves the term "legate" for the cardinal Secretary of State) for the blessing of abbey of the Benedictines of Le Barroux. I came in the name of the Pope, and not only because I am favorable to the situation of Le Barroux. The Pope showed his benevolence. I was invested as the representative of the Sovereign Pontiff. But my nomination was not published in the Osservatore Romano... |
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"I do not know what he will do" - but he goes on to say he "knows him very well". He knows very well what is being planned.... |
| ? Vous avez été la voix du Conclave, annonçant l?élection du Pape. On sentait dans votre voix une émotion et un certain plaisir? | - You were the voice of the Conclave, announcing the election of the Pope. One felt in your voice emotion and a certain pleasure... |
| ? Nous nous connaissons depuis 1962. Après le Concile, dans la commission théologique internationale ; puis, le catéchisme de l?Eglise catholique à la préparation duquel j?ai collaboré. Ensuite, le Compendium (« abrégé »), dont j?ai été aussi membre de la commission cardinalice préparatoire. Nous avons travaillé jusqu?à la veille de son élection. Nos rapports ont toujours été très liés à l?aspect doctrinal (et pastoral) dans l?Eglise. C?est une longue connaissance, même s?il faut garder les distances entre un grand théologien et un petit professeur de théologie. | - We have known each other since 1962. After the Council, in the international theological commission; then, the catechism of the catholic Church in the preparation of which I collaborated. Then, the Compendium ("shortened version"), of which I was also member of the preparatory Commission of Cardinals. We worked together until the day before his election. Our relations were always related to the doctrinal (and pastoral) aspect of the Church. It is a long knowledge, even if it is necessary to keep the distances between a major theologian and a small professor of theology. |
| ? C?est presque un hasard que ce soit vous qui l?ayez annoncé? | - It was almost by chance that it was you who announced it... |
| ? Si l?on peut parler de hasard, c?est un hasard ; car j?étais le 5e par ordre d?ancienneté parmi les cardinaux-diacres. Or, l?un est mort : le cardinal Schotte ; les trois autres avaient accompli dix ans comme cardinaux-diacres et devaient passer à l?ordre des cardinaux-prêtres. Et moi je devenais le premier, donc le protodiacre? Et Jean-Paul II a confirmé, le jour même de son hospitalisation, que j?étais le plus vieux? Pour ce qui est du conclave, on est lié au secret le plus absolu, mais il y a des choses qui sont tout à fait publiques. Je suis parti de mon appartement pour le conclave et j?avais emporté du linge pour 6 jours ; et l?élection est arrivée en 24 heures. Je pense que c?est un fait extrêmement heureux, utile, qui montre que l?unité dans l?Eglise est une heureuse réalité. Que même s?il y a des différences ici ou là, l?élection du Pape a eu lieu très vite. On pourrait dire avec une certaine malice que, à la maison Sainte-Marthe, nous étions très bien logés, nous avions une nourriture excellente, le service était hors pair. Ce n?est pas comme lors du conclave qui a vu l?élection du Pape Paul VI. J?y étais conclaviste : petites chambres, petit lavabo, vase de nuit, un lit, une chaise, une petite table. Nous célébrions l?un après l?autre? |
- If one can speak about chance, it was by chance; because I was the 5th in order of seniority among the cardinal-deacons. However, one died: Cardinal Schotte; the three others had completed ten years as cardinal-deacons and were to move to the order of cardinal-priests. So I became the first, therefore the proto-deacon... And John-Paul II confirmed me, the very same day of his hospitalization, since I was oldest... As regards the conclave, one is bound to absolute secrecy, but there are things which are completely public. I started from my apartment for the conclave and I had carried linen for 6 days; and the election happened in 24 hours. I think that it is an extremely happy fact, useful, which shows that the unity in the Church is a happy reality. That even if there are differences here or there, the election of the Pope took place very quickly. One could say with a certain mischievousness that, at the Saint Martha house, we were housed very well, we had excellent food, the service was above par. It was not like the time of the conclave which saw the election of Pope Paul VI. I was a conclavist there: small rooms, small wash-hand basin, chamber pot, a bed, a chair, a small table. We celebrated (Mass) one after the other... This time, the amenities were great; we could have delayed the election since our hospitality was excellent. And yet it went extremely quickly... That was very, very positive. |
| ? Et le nom de Benoît a-t-il, à votre avis, une signification particulière ? | - And does the name of Benedict have, in your opinion, a particular significance? |
| ? J?ai toujours été assez lié aux bénédictins, et je crois que la dévotion, la vénération vis-à-vis de saint Benoît est un reflet d?une certaine attitude d?esprit. Si vous lisez la règle de saint Benoît, vous y verrez qu?elle est trempée d?esprit de sagesse et de largeur de vues. Elle n?a pas été conçue comme la règle d?un ordre religieux, mais comme la règle d?un monastère. Le regroupement des monastères est un fait assez postérieur. Ce sont les monastères qui suivaient la même règle qui ont imaginé qu?il fallait prendre une espèce de lien juridique entre eux. Ce n?était pas comme cela au début. Donc saint Benoît est la source d?un cep pluraliste. La manière de vivre la règle chez les bénédictins, chez les cisterciens, chez les trappistes est différente. Et tous sont des bénédictins au fond. J?ai demandé une fois à un père abbé allemand laquelle des 22 congrégations bénédictines est la véritable congrégation bénédictine. Et ce père abbé m?a répondu : ou bien chacune ou bien aucune. Pour moi, cela représente l?esprit de la saine liberté qui correspond à l?esprit du Pape Benoît XVI. Je crois que Benoît XVI va être extrêmement respectueux des différences légitimes. Il a dit dans un de ses livres qu?il n?est pas l?homme des institutions, des systèmes, des bureaux. Mais il a une foi profonde dans ce qui constitue le noyau de l?unité de l?Eglise, c?est-à-dire la foi, les sacrements, la prière. |
- I was always rather related to the Benedictines, and I believe that the devotion, the veneration with respect to Saint Benedict is a reflection of a certain attitude of spirit. If you read the rule of Saint Benedict, you will see there that it is soaked in a spirit of wisdom and broadness of outlook. It was not conceived as the rule of a religious order, but as the rule of a monastery. The grouping together of the monasteries is a fact that came afterwards. In fact it was the monasteries themselves, who following the same rule, thought it necessary to establish a kind of juridical bond between themselves. It was not like that at the beginning. Thus Saint Benedict is the source of a pluralist stock. The manner of living the rule in the Benedictines, cistercians, the Trappists is different. And all are Benedictines at root. I once asked a German abbot which of the 22 Benedictine congregations is the true Benedictine congregation. And this abbot answered me: either each one or none. For me, that represents the spirit of the healthy freedom which corresponds to the spirit of Pope Benedict XVI. I believe that Benedict XVI will be extremely respectful of legitimate differences. He said in one of his books that he is not a man of institutions, systems, offices. But he has a major faith in what constitutes the core of unity of the Church, i.e. the faith, the sacraments, prayer. |
I think you will agree that the Cardinal covers all the main points and we have a much clearer idea that this pontificate intends to take on the question of the Traditional Rite in the Church. It all depends upon the support (or otherwise) he gets from the hierarchy.
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