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To: xzins

Not one of the people you cite has evidence, internal to the biblical text, that he was, in fact, saved. We only know that they asked what must be done, or that the path to salvation was made open to them.

Granted, most of these people doubtless *were* saved, but that's not the point. There is nothing in the Bible that states categorically that they were saved. Since you insist on biblical evidence of the establishde fact, in retrospect, of their salvation, I would submeit to you that there is no direct evidence, only indirect evidence.

It does no good to cite passages supporting a once-saved-always-saved solution to these cases. Harmonization of the entire text shows, as many of us have demonstrated many times here, that there are many qualifying texts that demonstrate that the personal knowledge of salvation, while in this life, is conditional at best. Therefore, even St. Paul, who, if once-saved-always-saved were a correct notion, would certainly qualify, says in many passages (Philippians 2:12, 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 are two examples) that both he and his hearers do not have certain assurance of salvation. They have a moral assurance, provided that they maintain their walk in grace. Therefore, none of your cases *proves* anything, they only provide a certain likelihood that many, if not most, of these people are, in fact, now in heaven.

Therefore, strictly speaking, you cannot prove *anyone* is in saved other than the Good Thief. Not rejecting Tradition, the ancient voice of the Church, I do not have that problem, and know of many people who are in heaven. You will reject the authority that projects that knowledge, obviously, so we won't get anywhere discussing it. But, here again, we have a situation that touches on the issue of "authority," and its vital role in interpreting non only Scriptural quotations, but also matters only indirectly dealt with or defined by Scripture, such as the nature of the Trinity, the duel nature of Christ as a divine person, etc.

It's interesting that so many on this forum constantly remonstrate with the Catholics about what was said at such-and-such ancient ecumenical council, or commentary from the Fathers about the subject matter from them. What doesn't seem to be realized is that, as a foundation to the quotes cited, there is the blaring notion that the Church, in such councils, *knew* it had the *authority* to decide issues definitively. This seems lost on so many people. The Church has authority. It maintains that authority today. Those other Christians who do not partake of it are lost to a multiplicity of differing interpretations, and even fundamental questions involving requirements for salvation cannot be answered with consistency across the board.

I have my answer, because the Church, whose members wrote the New Testament under inspiration, and whose members discerned, vetted, compiled, canonized and interpreted Scripture with authority, can settle such matters.


324 posted on 12/02/2005 5:54:46 AM PST by magisterium
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To: magisterium

I am not an advocate of once-saved-always-saved....at least not in the way it's generally presented. Therefore, much of the commentary on that subject doesn't apply to me. My position is simply that of Paul, "His Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God." I could ask you, "Are you going to stop believing in our Lord Jesus?" You will answer me, "No way....it's not what I would ever want to do." I would reply, "So, you deeply believe in him." You would respond, "Absolutely." I would finally say, "So, you're one of His children?" You would humbly answer, "Yes, I'm a child of the Lord."

I would claim that to be evidence that His Spirit has testified with your spirit that you ARE one of His children.

On top of all this is the instruction, "Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."

In short, we shouldn't be arrogant about our standing. Better to keep His grace in mind.

So far as the authority of the Church, I have great respect for the authority of the church. After all, I'm ordained in a hierarchical denomination.

Yet, the Church is subject to the authority of the Apostles....and the scripture is our document that preserves their instructions and teachings.


326 posted on 12/02/2005 6:07:10 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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