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To: xzins

No, I can't. Specific people's eternal destinies are unknown to us, categorically as far as damnation is concerned, nearly categorically in cases involving salvation (canonized saints being the exception). But why should this surprise? You cannot point to one specific instance of salvation, either, acording to your own criteria, apart from Stephen and the Good Thief, perhaps.

With Stephen, it is certainly implied that he went to heaven as a martyr, but his asking God to receive his spirit constitutes no absolute proof. I KNOW he is in heaven, for that is the faith of the Church. But there is no Scriptural "proof," only a Scriptural likelihood. As for the Good Thief, even there, a "special case" applies. The man was not baptized, which is objectively required. He had no demonstrable faith in Jesus as the Son of God, as is also objectively required; he merely supposed Him capable of being called "Lord." But the circumstances of the learned Jews of the time show that calling the Messiah "Lord" did not *necessarily* equate to calling Him God (Matt. 22:42-45). He never partook of the Bread of Life, also normative for salvation.

In this man, Scripture admits of an exception where the "normative means of salvation" could not apply. One exception admits the possibility of others. We only claim the possibility. We don't claim specific instances can be known. But, as with the Good Thief's case, God *can* save whom He wills, His own decreed norms notwithstanding.


228 posted on 12/01/2005 11:11:17 AM PST by magisterium
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To: magisterium

Stephen and the rich man on the cross do not exhaust the biblical possibilities since the doctrine of the bible teaches us what is required for salvation. The Philippian jailer asked Paul, "What must I do to be saved?" Paul said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."

Therefore, I'd add the name of that jailer and anyone in the Bible who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ since that is the criterion set forth.

I would also add any person since then who has believed. I'd also add Abraham because of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Because of the statement, "his faith was credited to him as righteousnes," I would add those who were believers in the true God in Old Testament times. We are told that Melchizadek was High Priest of God at Salem, and that Abraham subjected himself to that man.

But, you are correct, I cannot think of even one example of an unbeliever who I would claim is saved.....whether in the Bible or outside of it.


301 posted on 12/01/2005 10:40:15 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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