Posted on 11/22/2005 7:26:10 AM PST by NYer
We have the reality of the Incarnation in certain tension with the reality of the Holy Trinity. The Incarnate Christ says in John 14:28 "the Father is greater than I". Yet, in the same chapter, "I am in the Father and the Father in me", which iasserts the Trinitarian unity of essence. It is heretical to conclude from that that the nature of the Eternal Trinity somehow changed with the incarnation, while it is possible and in fact necessary to distinguish between the divine and the human persons of Christ in reading the Scripture. I will research which christological error yours is later, if you are curious.
So, why exactly command over the created world such as walking on water or through walls is different than omnipresence?
"Galatians 4:16 is part of our Book."
Oh come on. Get over yourself!
"And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me"
Soul of my Saviour, sanctify my breast
Body of Christ, be thou my saving guest;
Blood of my Saviour, bathe me in thy tide,
Wash me with water flowing from thy side.
Strength and protection may thy Passion be;
O Blessed Jesus, hear and answer me;
Deep in thy wounds, Lord, hide and shelter me;
So shall I never, never part from thee.
Guard and defend me from the foe malign;
In death's dread moments make me only thine;
Call me, and bid me come to thee on high,
Where I may praise thee with thy saints for aye.
Based upon your understanding of transsubstantiation, what do you think?
Did the Good Thief fulfill the eucharist requirement?
1. Is the Lord bound to the rules He give us?
2. All the old time Hebrews never did this either, does that mean they failed to "fulfill the eucharist requirement"? 3. Does the Lord really expect us to do that which is impossible?
SD
No.
He repeated Himself, then asked His apostles if they were going to run away, too.
They didn't.
They got their explanation at the Last Supper.
And so do we.
No metaphor. No imagery.
'Just' the Real Presence of Our Lord.
"If you want to contradict what Jesus said to Pilate ... go right ahead."
When making an accusation it is usually helpful to prove the accusation.
I guess you missed the part where I said, "...And of course he has it by God's permission."
I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed."
-"Letter to the Romans", paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D
St. Ignatius of Antioch
Lord, in your servant's hands,
you are lifted up,
high for all to see,
like so long ago, you were lifted up
upon the cross.
a spectacle meant to shame and kill,
but instead, brought life.
And in your priest's hands,
Glowing like a soft white beacon in the night,
you become our life,
the food for our famished souls,
the drink for our parched spirit
lost for too long in the desert.
O life-giving Master,
who feeds us again and again with his own self,
who waits day in and out
vunerable,accessible,
yet Lord of the universe,
to join us in joy
out of pure love.
Deo Gratis!
"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."
" First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.
St. Justin Martyr
One for our Eastern brothers and sisters:
Glory to thee, O God; Glory to thee, O God; Glory to thee, O God.
I thank thee, O Lord my God, that thou hast not rejected me, a sinner, but hast accounted me worthy to become a communicant of thy Holy Mysteries. I thank thee that thou hast accounted me, the unworthy, worthy to partake of thine immaculate and heavenly gifts. But, O Master who lovest mankind, who didst both die for us and rise again, and didst bestow upon us these thy terrible and life-giving Mysteries for the benefitting and sanctification of our souls and bodies: grant that they may be for me also unto the healing of soul and body, unto the averting of everything contrary thereto; unto the enlightenment of the eyes of my heart; unto the peace of my spiritual powers; unto faith invincible; unto love unfeigned; unto fulfilling of wisdom; unto the keeping of thy commandments; unto growth in thy divine grace, and the attainment of thy kingdom: that by them preserved in thy holiness, I may ever remember thy grace, and henceforth live not unto myself, but unto thee, our Master and Benefactor. And thus, when this life is ended, in the hope of eternal life, I may attain unto everlasting rest, where the voice of those who keep festival is unceasing, and the delight of those who behold the ineffable beauty of thy countenance is boundless; for thou art the true desire and unutterable joy of all those who love thee, O Christ our God, and all creation hymneth thee forever. Amen.
In light of this, I think you're misinterpreting St. John, and St. Paul, who speak of "the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions".
Remember that God created the world, and found everything in it to be "good". Some of that good remains in spite of the Fall, the heresy of "total depravity" notwithstanding.
Pange lingua gloriosi
Corporis mysterium,
Sanguinisque pretiosi,
Quem in mundi pretium
Fructus ventris generosi
Rex effudit Gentium.
Nobis datus, nobis natus
Ex inacta Virgine,
Et in mundo conversatus,
Sparso verbi semine,
Sui moras incolatus
Miro clausit ordine.
In suprema nocte coenae
Recumbus cum fratribus
Observata lege plene
Cibis in legalibus,
Cibum turbae duodenae
Se dat suis manibus.
Verbum caro, panem verum
Verbo carnem efficit:
Fitque sanguis Christi merum,
Et si sensus deficit,
Ad firmandum cor sincerum
Sola fides sufficit.
Tantum ergo Sacramentum
Veneremur cernui:
Et antiquum documentum
Novo cedat ritui:
Praestet fides supplementum
Sensuum defectui.
Genitori, Genitoque
Laus et jubilatio,
Salus, honor, virtus quoque
Sit et benedictio:
Procedenti ab utroque
Compar sit laudatio.
Amen. Alleluia.
Sing, my tongue,
The mystery of the glorious body,
And of the precious Blood,
Shed to save the world,
By the King of the nations,
The fruit of a noble womb.
Given to us, born for us,
From a stainless Virgin,
And having dwelt in the world,
Sowing the seed of the word,
He closed in a wonderful way,
The days of his habitation.
On the night of His last supper,
Reclining with His brothers,
The law having been fully observed
With legal foods,
He gives Himself as food with His
Own hands to the twelve.
The Word in Flesh makes true Bread
His Flesh with a word;
Wine becomes the Blood of Christ,
And if sense is deficient,
To confirm sincere hearts,
Faith alone suffices.
Then let us prostrate and
Venerate so great a Sacrament,
And let the old law yield
To the new rite;
Let faith stand forward to
Supply the defect of the senses.
To the Begetter and the Begotten,
Be praise and jubilation,
Health, honor, and strength,
And blessing too,
And let equal praise be to Him,
Who proceeds from Both.
Amen. Alleluia.
Lord Jesus Christ, I approach Thy banquet table in fear and trembling, for I am a sinner and dare not rely on my own worth but only on Thy goodness and mercy. I am defiled by my many sins in body and soul and by my unguarded thoughts and words. Gracious God of majesty and awe, I seek Thy protection, I look for Thy healing. Poor troubled sinner that I am, I appeal to Thee, the fountain of all mercy. I cannot bear Thy judgment, but I trust in Thy salvation.
Lord, I show my wounds to Thee and uncover my shame before Thee. I know my sins are many and great, and they fill me with fear, but I hope in Thy mercies, for they can't be numbered. Lord Jesus Christ, Eternal King, God and man, crucified for mankind, look upon me with mercy and hear my prayer, for I trust in Thee. Have mercy on me, full of sorrow and sin, for the depth of Thy compassion never ends. Praise to Thee, saving sacrifice, offered on the wood of the cross for me and for all mankind. Praise to the noble and precious Blood, flowing from the wounds of my crucified Lord Jesus Christ and washing away the sins of the whole world. Remember, Lord, Thy creature, whom Thou hast redeemed with Thy blood; I repent my sins, and I long to put right what I have done.
Merciful Father, take away all my offenses and sins; purify me in, body and soul, and make me worthy to taste the Holy of Holies. May Thy Body and Blood, which I intend to receive, although I am unworthy, be for me the remission of my sins, the washing away of my guilt, the end of my evil thoughts, and the rebirth of my better instincts. May it incite me to do the works pleasing to Thee and profitable to my health in body and soul, and be a firm defense against the wiles of my enemies. Amen.
St. Ambrose (340-397 AD)
Dear Nihil Obstat,
Thank you for that one. It is worthy of commitment to memory.
sitetest
"And I, as would others here, truly appreciate it if you would quit insulting Jesus here."
Could you direct me to any insults I have posted to the Son of God?
... still waiting on this friend.
Ambrose is one of my heros, you know.
Here's another poem (not mine)
THE HOLY EUCHARIST
by: Pedro Calderón de la Barca (1600-1681)
HONEY in the lion's mouth,
Emblem mystical, divine,
How the sweet and strong combine;
Cloven rock for Israel's drouth;
Treasure-house of golden grain
By our Joseph laid in store,
In his brethren's famine sore
Freely to dispense again;
Dew on Gideon's snowy fleece;
Well, from bitter turned to sweet;
Shew-bread laid in order meet,
Bread whose cost doth ne'er increase,
Though no rain in April fall;
Horeb's manna freely given
Showered in white dew from heaven,
Marvelous, angelical;
Weightiest bunch of Canaan's vine;
Cake to strengthen and sustain
Through long days of desert pain;
Salem's monarch's bread and wine;--
Thou the antidote shalt be
Of my sickness and my sin,
Consolation, medicine,
Life and Sacrament to me.
This English translation by R.C. Trench of Calderón's "The Holy Eucharist" is reprinted from Hispanic Anthology: Poems Translated from the Spanish by English and North American Poets. Ed. Thomas Walsh. New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1920.
The Real Presence, in any event, refers to the resurrected body, as well as the soul and divinity of Christ. This is represented by dropping a crumb from the Host into the Blood, as separated Host and Blood would represent death.
The scriptural support is, of course, in the treatment of the Real Presence in John 6, the breaking of the Eucharistic bread at the Last Supper, as well as Christ's promise to be with us always, and in particular wherever two or more gather in His name. The distinction you make between omnipresence and other supernatural abilities is wholly artificial: we associate mortality, solidity and weight with bodies as much as spacial compactness, while acts and promises of Christ defy all these properties.
Is glory "beauty"? Beauty has so many definitions, I think this is a silly point to argue.
Do you think a sunset is beautful? A snow-capped mountain range? Do you thank God for creating such natural beauty? Is that paganistic? Is gold beautiful? Silver? Gems? All natural and all created by God. Are paintings beautiful? Some are. Some aren't. Paintings created to glorify God are beautiful. So too, statues created to glorify God are beautiful.
Is the stick figure drawing a child creates for you beautiful? Absolutely. It's not great art in the popular sense. It's nothing you'll see in the Louvre. But it's beautiful because a child has chosen to glorify you with his/her limited abilities. Mankind can't BEGIN to reach the kind of beauty God has awaiting us (Lord willing) in Heaven. The paintings on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel may be nothing more than stick figures to God, but they are also beautiful in His eyes because they were created to give him glory, not unlike the child and his crude drawing tacked to your refrigerator at home.
Begrudging the 'opulence' of the Sistine Chapel is akin to telling your nephew his refrigerator artwork sucks and a waste of time when he could have been doing his homework instead.
Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:
"So then, if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God's gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ's Blood and Body and is His member? As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, 'For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones' (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of 'spiritual' and 'invisible' man, 'for a spirit does not have flesh an bones' (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and 'the grain of wheat falls into the earth' (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ."
-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely Named Gnosis". Book 5:2, 2-3, circa 180 A.D
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