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To: x5452
Augustine was the author of the Filioque? Please post me a source that quotes Augustine as saying this so that I can read it.

If you are interested to know what doctrine issues separate the churches and which actions of the churches separate one another and thus gain perspective on the nature of discussions between Metropolitan Kirill and Cardinal Kasper you must understand the different position of the Orthodox church on these issues, instead you're throwing out straw men, and proclaiming the pope is always right.

So rather than come out and summarize, I am supposed to wade through thousands and thousands of words taken from the Orthodox point of view on what Catholics believe? I suppose if you bury me with details and links, I will be compelled to believe what you do? I already know what the Church teaches. I don't need the Orthodox's view on Catholicism to tell me (wrongly) what they teach. It is not what you claim, for example, that the Pope is "always right". This line of polemics is outdated and ignorant. Leading me to sources that claim this is the Catholic Church's teachings doesn't lead me to think that your posts will "enlighten me" on the TRUE Orthodox position. Thus, I still will insist on you getting rid of the straw man.

Regarding ex Cathedra. Again, you don't know the Catholic position. It is extremely limited. It has been used TWICE in 150 years. Note this is called an EXTRAORDINARY teaching of the Church. The ORDINARY teachings of the Church are ALSO considered infallible - or will you now say that the Orthodox do not believe that Councils are infallible - which, by the way, was not "defined" at a council.

The Orthodox reject the view of the original sin by Augustine also, and thus have no need to patch around the Virgin Mary to sew together a hole in the doctrine.

The reasons given by you are not convincing. I am to believe that because Mary was declared immaculate by the Church, she must not be fully human? If the Orthodox take that stance, then I suppose they are declaring that Christ, TOO is not fully human, since HE was born immaculate as well. The Church Fathers of 200 AD and before clearly believe that Mary was not born into sin. She is the Second Eve. The First Eve was ALSO not born into sin... So if you disagree that Mary was born without sin, you are going against the Church's teachings for nearly 2000 years. And WE are heretics?

By claiming that the Catholic Church is heretical is to say that the Gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church built on the foundation of Peter. What more can I say about such talk? All we can do is hope that the good Metropolitan Kirill has a better understanding of Church history than you. All it takes to prove Rome's point of view is to look at the writings of the Church Fathers. THEY seemed to believe that the Pope had primacy over other bishops.

What I find interesting about the Orthodox Church is that they currently find Ecumenical Councils as constitutive of ultimate authority - yet the East has never convoked one nor can they. If the universal church is conciliar in structure, then the Eastern Orthodox do not have either a "true church constitution or a regular church government" because they CANNOT summon an ecumenical council (Soloviev, The Russian Church and the Papacy, pg 19). I find this a contradiction. Be careful who you call a heretic.

Regards

168 posted on 11/23/2005 11:03:45 AM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus

Firstly I am not a writer of Orthodox Official materials. Anything I might write would be irrelevant.

That is why I have posted numerous OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS FROM OFFICIAL ORTHODOX SOURCES.

Second I already posted you three such articles on Augustine! (You may recall refusing to read one!)

Here's one from the vatican read the footnotes!

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm

Here's a slew more!
http://aggreen.net/filioque/filioque.html
http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/filioque.html
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Filioque

"In the West, St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son, though subordinate to neither. His theology was dominant in the West until the Middle Ages, including his theology of the Trinity. Other Latin fathers also spoke of the Spirit proceeding from both the Father and the Son. While familiar in the West, this way of speaking was virtually unknown in the Greek-speaking, Eastern Roman Empire."

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Augustine_of_Hippo

Despite these acclamations, most of his works were not translated into Greek until the 13th century (?) and some Orthodox Christians identify errors in his theology—especially those in his Triadology which gave rise to the Filioque addition to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed—and regard him as being one of the major factors in the Great Schism between the Church in the East and in the West. Thus, there are those among the Orthodox who regard Augustine as a heretic, although there has never been any conciliar condemnation of either him or his writings.


169 posted on 11/23/2005 11:17:20 AM PST by x5452
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