Posted on 11/14/2005 6:24:28 PM PST by null and void
Werner Erhard (his real name is John Rosenberg). See the EST writeup at http://skepdic.com/est.html .
Erhard sold "the technology" to a group of followers in 1991 who reorganized as Landmark Forum (see http://skepdic.com/landmark.html ).
People Synergistically Involved (PSI) ( http://www.psiseminars.com ) is another human potential movement spinoff of EST.
Anyway, my question is—forgive me if you've already been asked this—but in the age of cable news, the internet, and instantaneous, abundant information, how could anyone at this point NOT KNOW at least to some degree how crazy and cultish Scientology really is?
What is your belief system now?
Well, I believe in the soul, ... the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, ... opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days.
For whatever reason I don't feel faith. I liken it to 'Blind Sight' where someone doesn't consciously visually perceive objects in their environment, yet can navigate a crowded room with ease. Or as in the case of one FReeper (I wish I could remember who) who lacks the sense of smell, yet can tell when, and enjoy, food that is properly spiced.
I had a situation at a counter protest in San Fransisco, right before the most recent Iraq war, where a cute little Pali protester got in my face and said, "And do you know what they called Israel in the Bible?" obviously trolling for me to say 'Palestine'. I heard these words come out of my mouth: "Yes, they called it the land that God Himself gave His chosen people, the Jews." She blanched, turned on her heel and left.
It would be very reasonable for me to say that the spirit of the Lord moved me to say those words, or even that He spoke through my mouth. That may even be the case. But I didn't feel it.
Do you know how many people in the world are really Scientologists? I hear that the number is highly exaggerated.
Of those, how many are actually taught the 'Xenu' story?
How many of those people believe the story, and how many don't? -At some point, do the non-believers then try to leave the cult?
What do high-level members tell low-level members if they accidentally find out about Xenu 'too soon' or from outside sources? There must be some sort of damage control procedure if a low-level starts having doubts and asking questions. Any insight you can share?
Thank you!!!!!!!
Did you come to the conclusion on your own that Hubbard is/was God, or had you reached that level? Isn't that one of the big insights? One person I know thinks he travels on the astral plane, and since it's high Satanism, probably does experience some occult hapenings.
No problem! That's what the thread is for, after all!
Do you know how many people in the world are really Scientologists?
No idea. I'd guess, and it's only a guess, I don't even have enough current information to make an intelligent guess, I'd hazard high 100,000's to low 1,000,000's world wide.
I hear that the number is highly exaggerated.
Depends on what the definition of is is. The church counts anyone who has bought a book or taken a class as a member. I'd be very surprised if there are much more than 100,000 actively 'on lines'.
Of those, how many are actually taught the 'Xenu' story?
Only those who have started OT III training and processes. I don't think that statistic is available, but I'll look and see if I can find out how many OT III completions there are. No promises here!
How many of those people believe the story, and how many don't?
No idea, but to get to that level one has to buy in to progressively more and more improbable whole track events.
-At some point, do the non-believers then try to leave the cult?
Yes, mostly. Some stay because they are greedy for the increases in abilities and perceptions promised in the next level (it's always just one more level away). Some stay because they have burned all their bridges to the real world, and think there is nothing out there for them.
What do high-level members tell low-level members if they accidentally find out about Xenu 'too soon' or from outside sources? There must be some sort of damage control procedure if a low-level starts having doubts and asking questions. Any insight you can share?
Don't know. As you say, there must be some damage control. I think that for the individual they try to fast track them through the lower grades so it can be handled properly. This would require all their auditors, case supervisors, and staff they deal with be OT III and above, and this naturally costs more!
On an organizational level these people have to be closely monitored so they don't contaminate others. People who blab are probably 'declared' (a suppressive person) and expelled.
Thank you!!!!!!!
You are quite welcome! Keep 'em coming!
No.
Isn't that one of the big insights?
So I'm told. When I was in, the real fanatics were called members of the 'Ron is God Club' behind their backs...
One person I know thinks he travels on the astral plane, and since it's high Satanism, probably does experience some occult hapenings.
*shrug* Out of body experiences are not uncommon, although I can't recall ever hearing a scientologist describe it as astral travel.
I wouldn't describe scientology, as 'high Satanism', nor most scientologists as Satanists. That implies a level of evil most of them just don't have. Scientology has a clear code of conduct, which applied in context works to everyone's better interests. So internally at least, the rewards and punishments are fairly equitable.
It's in the relationships with the outside world that scientology 'ethics' start to shade towards amoral (as opposed to immoral) as non-members wants and needs simply don't count as much. Sadly, this is typical of most organizations.
When scientology encounters enemies (and they are quite, quite good at creating enemies) it gets ugly, with overt threats, noisy investigations, whisper campaigns, etc. The attitude is that if you are against us you must have eeeeeevil deep dark secrets in your past, and they will do anything to find it. They will get very desperate and frantic should they not find it easily. At this point. ethics and morals tend to go out the window.
But the real nasty stuff is reserved for people who have left the church and publicly criticize it. Towards them the actions can be virtually indistinguishable from a Satanic.
What's going on with Scientology and west Florida...?I 've heard that lots of judges there are scientologists promoting their anti Christian ideology.
Yet it was founded by Satanists and has even adopted the Satanic Cross as its symbol.
Even funnier, and scarier, now not only do they have "clergy", they are sending "missionaries" to Africa.
The world headquarters is in Clearwater FL. Per policy scientology targets 'opinion leaders' for membership/outreach programs. They treat them very well. And then use them to promote their own agendas...
As I said, most people in scientology are not Satanists.
At least on the lower levels there is nothing overtly evil nor Satanic as I understand the term. Scientology specifically states that it is compatible with other religions, as it does not address God or Ultimate questions, and these issues are left to the conscience of the individual practitioner.
Hubbard was certainly associated with Alistair Crowley, perhaps the most famous Satanist of the century. And Hubbard did study at his knee, BUT 99 out of 100 scientologists are not aware of this. The bait for getting into scientology is not Satanism, it's not what they are there for.
Nearly everyone in scientology got into it because something was bugging them and nothing else they tried seemed to help. For good or evil, Hubbard, uh, 'borrowed' workable techniques from everywhere, relabeled them as his own, and organized them into a series of steps that at least initially cause very real improvements in the human condition.
People stay in scientology because for the most part it actually does work.
People tend to leave scientology when it stops working for them and/or they no longer want to go in the spiritual direction it is taking them. For some, this is when the elements of its' heritage from the Crowley crowd become clear.
So, I wouldn't say that scientology is 'high Satanism', as nearly every member would consider that they are there to battle what they perceive as the ultimate source of evil in the universe, the 'Reactive mind', or the 'Bank' as it is more commonly called. Battling evil is the antithesis of Satanism.
That is not to say that Satan is incapable of using people's good intentions for evil!
Not quite the Satanic Cross, prettl close though...
Most people probably think their's will be too..........
It's sort of a curse in ways, ain't it? I end up seeing things that I end up "having" to "do" something about....HA!!
My pop always preached "know what is going on around you" It's stuck.
FRegards,
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