5 Myths about 7 Books (the Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament)

Catholic Educators ^ | Mark Shea

[jcb8199]

Prots burned people same as Catholics...

[Campion]

The Holy Spirit expressly commanded the death penalty for some offenses, including leading people into idolatry, in the Mosaic Law. There an obvious Scriptural problem with a blanket assertion that the death penalty for heresy is contrary to the will of God.

"Nobody expects the Mosaic Inquisition."

[~Matahari]

Read The Book.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"There is no disputing the fact that as Christians, we are all part of the Body of Christ."

Actually I believe that would be disputed - pre VatII - and disputed rather loudly. No "salvation outside the Church" and all - that is, before the definition of the "Church" was expanded.



"The "deposit of truth" is disputed, as the RCC is the only church that has claimed and can claim it."

What is the "deposit of truth", and how does it differ in quality from what we have in the NT?



"Seriously, though, "lying teachers" is the key--"

I don't get your point here. Can you clarify?

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Prots burned people same as Catholics..."

What's that saying about two wrongs...?

[jcb8199]

Not to mention that, without the Authority of the Church, who's to say what the will of the Spirit is? I certainly don't condone burning, nor did Leo in item 33 (he merely said that it was an error to say so, as who, at the time, spoke with the Authoirty on the will of the Spirit? Luther or the Church?). Point is, he didn't say the opposite is true, that burning heretics is of the will of the Spirit, he just said it was an error to say that burning is against the will. Luther rejected the authority of the Church, and then made pronouncements himself about the Spirit (using what authority?).....

Scriptures warn that those who counter God's will endure "eternal fire" or will suffer in some form. Given the fact that such punishments were commonplace in the secular arena as much as the religious, it is not abnormal that people were burned. "Trial by ordeal" was common--you steal, you stick your hand in burning water or you are tossed off a cliff, or whatever, in accordance with the laws; you commit a crime against God (heresy, say, or blasphemy), you pay the penalty.

[jcb8199]

Have, thanks. Found it to be completely in line with everything the Catholic Church teaches and believes...

You might give it a shot, and not gloss over or re-interpret key passages that damage the Protestant arguments...

[PetroniusMaximus]

"There an obvious Scriptural problem with a blanket assertion that the death penalty for heresy is contrary to the will of God."

Come on Campion!

"And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of."


There was a death penalty used in the NT - Annanias & Saphira! But it was the Spirit Himself who did the slaying.

There is ZERO warrent in the NT for the use of force in dealing with heresy or apostate teachers. The Church is commanded by the Lord in the flollowing...

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."



"...and harmless as doves."

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Not to mention that, without the Authority of the Church, who's to say what the will of the Spirit is?"

The content of the Bible is surely His will.




"Point is, he didn't say the opposite is true, that burning heretics is of the will of the Spirit, he just said it was an error to say that burning is against the will."

I'll give that a "10" for effort in mental gymnastics. :)

Ping to #68


"Given the fact that such punishments were commonplace in the secular arena as much as the religious,"

Since when is the Church to be like the world? "Harmless as doves..."

[Campion]

There is ZERO warrent in the NT for the use of force in dealing with heresy or apostate teachers.

That doesn't answer my point. Luther didn't make that exception, nor does it necessarily follow that you have to have explicit warrant in the NT for everything you do. And (if you believe Scripture is inspired), the death penalty for heresy was certainly not contrary to the Spirit under the Old Covenant.

However, the idea of putting people to death for heresy in the Christian era was invented by secular rulers, not religious ones, oddly enough.

[Campion]

I'll give that a "10" for effort in mental gymnastics.

No, he's right. That's the usual way such documents should be read. If the document condemns "X" as an error, it doesn't follow that "not X" is always true, or even that "X" can't be okay given some additional circumstances or qualifications.

[Buggman]

Two points:

1) Neither Yeshua nor any of the Apostles cited any apocryphal/deuterocanonical book as Scripture (e.g., with the formula, "it is written," or "It says in the Scriptures . . .").

2) If the apocryphal books were true Scripture, Catholics wouldn't need them as sole witnesses to their theology (e.g., quoting 2 Macc. in support for praying for the dead).

[jcb8199]

--I think it was Christ who said it first..."I am the way, the truth, and the light..."

--The Deposit of Truth was begun by the Apostles, to whom Christ gave His authority on Earth, and the Apostles passed it to their followers, etc. The Deposit of Truth means that, while all that is in the Bible is inspired by God, not all that is inspired by God is in the Bible. The Church, then, led by the Holy Spirit, turns to the Scriptures AND to Tradition, as given to us by Christ and the Apostles, and speaks with Authority about matters of faith. Who is the Authority in Protestantism? There are 30,000+ denominations, so you can't say that the Bible is the only authority, as every sect has a different interpretation of it.

--Lying teachers means that those who are not of God will not stand. The "speedy doom" comes to those who oppose God, or speak about/of Christ in ways that are not OF Christ.

[jcb8199]

Everyone is blind...???

[jcb8199]

Call me Master Equivocator, if you like... :)

The point is, people in the Church went with what they knew--sinners would be punished, and criminals were punished a certain way. Were they right? Nope. Was it acceptable? Yes. It was neither cruel nor unusual in those days. It is hard for us to pass judgment on their actions, as nothing is seen in its correct social context.

[jcb8199]

READ THE ARTICLE.

[jcb8199]

From newadvent.org:
Now in this respect there are several points of controversy between Catholics and every body of Protestants. Is all revealed truth consigned to Holy Scripture? or can it, must it, be admitted that Christ gave to His Apostles to be transmitted to His Church, that the Apostles received either from the very lips of Jesus or from inspiration or Revelation, Divine instructions which they transmitted to the Church and which were not committed to the inspired writings? Must it be admitted that Christ instituted His Church as the official and authentic organ to transmit and explain in virtue of Divine authority the Revelation made to men? The Protestant principle is: The Bible and nothing but the Bible; the Bible, according to them, is the sole theological source; there are no revealed truths save the truths contained in the Bible; according to them the Bible is the sole rule of faith: by it and by it alone should all dogmatic questions be solved; it is the only binding authority. Catholics, on the other hand, hold that there may be, that there is in fact, and that there must of necessity be certain revealed truths apart from those contained in the Bible; they hold furthermore that Jesus Christ has established in fact, and that to adapt the means to the end He should have established, a living organ as much to transmit Scripture and written Revelation as to place revealed truth within reach of everyone always and everywhere. Such are in this respect the two main points of controversy between Catholics and so-called orthodox Protestants (as distinguished from liberal Protestants, who admit neither supernatural Revelation nor the authority of the Bible). The other differences are connected with these or follow from them, as also the differences between different Protestant sects--according as they are more or less faithful to the Protestant principle, they recede from or approach the Catholic position.

[Ciexyz]

Saved for further study.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"nor does it necessarily follow that you have to have explicit warrant in the NT for everything you do"

Where not talking about what type of shoes you wear on Sunday - we ar talking about taking an human life in the name of Jesus Christ. This has turned out to be such a black spot on the history of the RCC, how could you possibly see it as a good thing?


"the death penalty for heresy was certainly not contrary to the Spirit under the Old Covenant."

Different covenant, different rules. Israel was an earthly kingdom and engaged in earthly warfare.

"My Kingdom IS NOT OF THIS WORLD. If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight".

[jcb8199]

Old Covenant was not revoked, however...

And it is a black spot on the history of CHRISTIANITY. Protestants burned people same as Catholics. You can't single out the RCC on this--Prots are as guilty as the RCC.