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To: spunkets
Per can. 1, the whole man was changed for the worse through the offense of Adam's sin. Per can. 2, this was transmitted to all men. Obviously the Scriptural proofs cited in can. 1 have nothing to do with the effect of original sin upon Adam's descendants.

Your misreading of Ezechiel makes nonsense of all of Scripture. In your view, man never needed a Savior. Actually Ezechiel is clearly talking about the sins of men in his day (18:1-3), not about Adam's loss of the gifts of immortality, righteousness, etc. The righteousness of God was an unmerited gift and it was lost as a punishment for Adam's sin, and can only be restored by the grace of Christ. "Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us: that we might be made the justice of God in him." (1 Cor. 5:21). Adam's sons never deserved this gift of God's own life and so it was no injustice on His part not to give it to them at conception.

The soul is not a "Heavenly body". It is the form of the body.

As regards John 9:3, apparently you also believe that men are without sin in this world. When Christ taught his own disciples to pray that their sins would be forgiven, one wonders how this sinlessness could be possible without the grace of Christ! Was it in vain that the apostle Paul wrote to the Romans: "all have sinned and do need the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23)? Christ is just saying that the blindness of the man and his parents was not a result of any sin either of the man or his parents "but that the works of God should be made manifest in him". That is the obvious contextual reading - there is no need to jerk it out of context and pretend that for the salvation of man there is no need for "grace and truth" through our Lord Jesus Christ (St. John 1:17), since men can apparently live sinless and righteous lives through their own efforts.

According to Augustine, the scared blind man should have lie in fear of what the authorities would do to him.

There isn't any reason for the man to have lied, even under your contorted interpretation of St. Augustine and St. John. Or perhaps you are trying to say that St. Augustine believed that the blind man should have lied because, since he was a sinful man, he could do nothing but lie. This is a really dumb conclusion and it certainly has nothing to do with actual Augustinism.

I suggest you read St. Augustine's works refuting this Pelagian nonsense you're spouting.

66 posted on 11/12/2005 9:09:42 PM PST by gbcdoj (Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us Jud 8:17)
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To: gbcdoj
" In your view, man never needed a Savior."

Wrong, see #61.

"Actually Ezechiel is clearly talking about the sins of men in his day (18:1-3), not about Adam's loss of the gifts of immortality, righteousness, etc."

#61 addresses most of this. Ezekiel is general and global in scope.

"The righteousness of God was an unmerited gift and it was lost as a punishment for Adam's sin, and can only be restored by the grace of Christ."

God's Love is His own gift. That Love and His intent that we should have eternal life was never abandoned, regardless of Adam's sin. Adam's sin simply explains why we live in this world.

"Adam's sons never deserved this gift of God's own life and so it was no injustice on His part not to give it to them at conception."

This denies God's unwaivering Love, simply to promote a doctrine of injustice. A doctrine not supported by either scriptural fact, or reality. Children are innocent. They do not sin except out of their own hearts and free will which were an unblemished gift in and of the image and likeness of God. Perhaps you think your own children are don't deserve your love also.

"Or perhaps you are trying to say that St. Augustine believed that the blind man should have lied because, since he was a sinful man, he could do nothing but lie.

Exactly!

"This is a really dumb conclusion and it certainly has nothing to do with actual Augustinism."Of course not! According to Augustine, children are unclean, conceived in iniquity and nourished in their mother's sin. Wretched creatures he calls children. Augustine is the author of the totally depraved man, the foundation of Calvinism.

70 posted on 11/12/2005 9:47:58 PM PST by spunkets
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To: gbcdoj
"Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us: that we might be made the justice of God in him." (1 Cor. 5:21).

1Cor 5:21 should probably be read as 2Cor 5:21.

The translation of 'justification' is frequently made as 'righteousness' in the verse quoted. The original word, DIKAIOSUNE, might also be associated with the removal of a barrier to be made one with another.

It is sometimes used in the doctrine of justification and in the doctrine of righteousness.

Another interesting translation in this verse is the English word 'made'. The first use in the verse is the Greek POIEO, while the second is GINOMAI.

74 posted on 11/13/2005 3:42:46 AM PST by Cvengr (<;^))
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