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To: jcb8199
Only one who can ever tell you FOR SURE if you are going to heaven is Christ. [snip], but MEN can NEVER say "Do this and you will go to heaven," as only Christ can say that.

That's why we know from the scriptures that Jesus assured us that we could have everlasting life through faith in Him (not works, see Eph. 2:8-10).

If you are trusting in the sacramental "ticket punches" of the Catholic rite, instead of (or in addition to) faith in Christ's sacrifice on the cross on YOUR behalf, then you are NOT assured of eternal life according to the scriptures (see John 3:16).

I like the anti-Catholic site to which we were directed--those are some really ground-breaking arguments against the Church (arguments, when investigated, hold no water).

Let's see: I posted at 9:03 EST; you posted at 9:30 EST. I'm amazed that in 23 minutes you were able to read, study, digest, and refute with scripture the nine crucial questions posted therein (not to mention the fifteen articles). I'd love to see you post your scholarly rebuttal to each one of them! :)

Seriously, it's not an "anti-Catholic" website as you claim; rather, it is a website dedicated to presenting the truth of scripture to Catholics so that they may compare the scriptures to the teachings of the Catholic church and make informed judgments regarding the Christian faith.

Here's a question:

If the Bible is the Final Authority, where did the Bible come from? And why does the Protestant Bible have 7 fewer books than the original Catholic version?

I'm sure that you are aware that the scriptures were complied by the early Christian church fathers.

As far as the Apocrypha, those books were not part of the original Jewish sacred texts (i.e, the Old Testament) and have therefore been discounted as a part of the Canon of scripture.

Blessings!

87 posted on 11/11/2005 10:07:54 AM PST by 57chevypreterist (Remember, your orthodoxy was once heresy.)
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To: 57chevypreterist
From your link

Ephesians 2:8-15 (New International Version)

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Here's another:

James 2:14-17

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

The Apocrypha were apart of the Jewish Text. They were removed after Jerusalem was sacked and the Temple destroyed. The Protestants followed along. If Luther had had his was Revelations would not be in the finished Protestant Bible either.

107 posted on 11/11/2005 11:00:17 AM PST by Jaded (The truth shall set you free, but lying to yourself turns you French.)
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To: 57chevypreterist
That's why we know from the scriptures that Jesus assured us that we could have everlasting life through faith in Him (not works, see Eph. 2:8-10).

But according to James, faith without works is not faith. And Paul was "working out" his salvation in fear and trembling. And Paul admonished that those who do not work, "shall not eat".

I can't illuminate my lamp of faith without oil. I can't run the engine without gasoline. The lamp and the vehicle are not what they seem to be because they cannot function as they are intended without fuel. In the same way, faith is withered and worthless without the fuel of works. God spits out the lukewarm, and all that...

112 posted on 11/11/2005 11:05:01 AM PST by Rutles4Ever ("Fizellas! Looks like you guys are up to no good. Well, THIS gang used to be like that TOO, 3, 4)
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To: 57chevypreterist
That's why we know from the scriptures that Jesus assured us that we could have everlasting life through faith in Him (not works, see Eph. 2:8-10)

So his exhortation to "take up your cross and follow me," "not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my father in heaven," and numerous other passages in which we are told that we must DO beyond having faith. The sheep and the goats is the first to come to mind ("but when did we not do those things?" and "but when did we do those things?")
See these scriptures for more info:
Jas 2:14-26 ... what good is faith w/o works?
Heb 10:26-27, Rom 8:12-13 ... must avoid sin.
Jas 5:20 ... “earning” forgiveness.
Lk 6:46-49; Mt 7:21; Mt 19:16-21; Jn 5:28-29 ... must do will of God.
1 Cor 9:27 ... “buffet my body ...”
Phil 2:12; 2 Cor 5:10; Rom 2:6-13; Mt 25:32-46; Gal 6:6-10; Rev 20:12 ... works have merit.
1 Jn 2:3-6; 1 Jn 3:24; 1 Jn 5:3 ... keep commandments.


Let's see: I posted at 9:03 EST; you posted at 9:30 EST. I'm amazed that in 23 minutes you were able to read, study, digest, and refute with scripture the nine crucial questions posted therein (not to mention the fifteen articles). I'd love to see you post your scholarly rebuttal to each one of them! :)

I have obviously been to the site, as I knew it was anti-Catholic. I've read it. I've researched the rebuttals. That's the beauty of the Internets. For every claim that "justforcatholics" makes, I can find you 10 sites that refute them. It's not that hard, you just have to be willing to actually search for truth...

Seriously, it's not an "anti-Catholic" website as you claim; rather, it is a website dedicated to presenting the truth of scripture to Catholics so that they may compare the scriptures to the teachings of the Catholic church and make informed judgments regarding the Christian faith.
...and then not be Catholic anymore, right? That is the goal of the site--to present the "scriptural basis" for Christianity, and then compare it to the "un-Biblical practices" of the Catholic Church, picking and choosing from verses to substantiate the claim. Fine, Ephesians or Romans talk about "works" or "apart from the law," etc, but James is rather explicit about faith AND works. I like the term "Faith THAT works" because, again, not everone who says "Lord, Lord," will enter the Kingdom of Heaven...

This Site has 156 writings on it, some of which are in the Bible, some of which are not. They are some of the writings of which you speak. Who decided what made it into the Bible? First of all, ALL that is in the Bible is of God, but not all that is of God is in the Bible. 2 Tim. says it is PROFITABLE but not REQUISITE. John 20 and Acts 8 lend to the idea that not all is in the Bible. So, in comes Tradition--that which was taught "by word of mouth" (2 Thess.).

As for the "Jewish text" argument, the 7 books were in the Septuagint, which is the "Bible" the Apostles used (and we are talking Christianity here, not Judaism). Also, it is rather selective for Protestants to say that those 7 books don't belong, as EVERY book was chosen by various Councils, so to selectively boot some that the Church had been using since the beginning is rather...specious... Further, there are several New Testament verses which seem to refer to the Deuterocanonical books:
Revelation 1:4 and 8:3-4 appear to make reference to Tobit 12:15:

Revelation 1:4 Grace to you . . . from the seven spirits who are before his throne. {see also 3:1, 4:5, 5:6}

Revelation 8:3-4 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

{see also Revelation 5:8}

Tobit 12:15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One.

St. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:29, seems to have 2 Maccabees 12:44 in mind. This saying of Paul is one of the most difficult in the New Testament for Protestants to interpret, given their theology:

1 Corinthians 15:29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

2 Maccabees 12:44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

Luther and Wycliffe both included the Apocrypha in their Bibles, as well, not to mention several other early Protestant versions of the Bible. They have only recently (in terms of the general history of Christianity) been excluded. You might check out this site for a dialogue on the matter.

Hope that helps... In the words of Thomas Jefferson, "debate leads to inquiry and inquiry to truth, and that, I am sure, is the goal for both of us."
120 posted on 11/11/2005 11:15:20 AM PST by jcb8199
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To: 57chevypreterist; jcb8199
I'm amazed that in 23 minutes you were able to read, study, digest, and refute with scripture the nine crucial questions posted therein (not to mention the fifteen articles). I'd love to see you post your scholarly rebuttal to each one of them! :)

Let's take a look at one of these arguments. From the link you posted:

Is there any other Rock besides the Lord? 'Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock, I know not one' (Isaiah 44:8).

"Isaiah 44 - 8 (3) Fear not, be not troubled: did I not announce and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses! Is there a God or any Rock besides me? (3 [8] Rock: place of refuge; said of God in Deut 32:4, 18; 1 Sam 2:2; etc.)"

Mark 3:16; John 1:42 – Jesus renames Simon "Kepha" in Aramaic which literally means "rock." This was an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do, because "rock" was not even a name in Jesus' time. Jesus did this, not to give Simon a strange name, but to identify his new status among the apostles. When God changes a person's name, He changes their status.

Gen. 17:5; 32:28; 2 Kings 23:34; Acts 9:4; 13:9 - for example, in these verses, we see that God changes the following people's names and, as a result, they become special agents of God: Abram to Abraham; Jacob to Israel, Eliakim to Jehoiakim, Saul to Paul.

2 Sam. 22:2-3, 32, 47; 23:3; Psalm 18:2,31,46; 19:4; 28:1; 42:9; 62:2,6,7; 89:26; 94:22; 144:1-2 - in these verses, God is also called "rock." Hence, from these verses, non-Catholics often argue that God, and not Peter, is the rock that Jesus is referring to in Matt. 16:18. This argument not only ignores the plain meaning of the applicable texts, but also assumes words used in Scripture can only have one meaning. This, of course, is not true. For example:

1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are "Kepha" and on this "Kepha" I will build my Church. In Aramaic, "kepha" means a massive stone, and "evna" means little pebble.

Care to move on?

Source: Scriptural Catholic

294 posted on 11/11/2005 2:21:55 PM PST by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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