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To: HarleyD; P-Marlowe
Oh, HD, this doesn't even pass the milk through the nose test if the author truly understands that God is ineffable! To a Western, thoroughly committed to anthropomorphism audience, this might, wrongly, resonate, but to any Eastern Christian, comments like

"The Holy Spirit would be wasting time and effort to endeavor to convert a man who He knew from the beginning would go to Hell. You hear Synergists talk about how the Spirit tries to get men to be saved and if they don't yield to him they will "cross the line" and offend the Spirit so that He will never try to save them again." or

"No Synergist can consistently say that God foreknew who would be saved and then preach that God is trying to save every man. Surely if God knows whom He can save or who will be saved, then who would say that He is trying to save more?"
are laughable. The problem with some apologists is that they set up straw men and then crow when they knock them down.
God isn't "trying" to do anything. This writer knows absolutely nothing about Eastern Christianity.

"Now, how about this from Homily XII on Hebrews by +John Chrysostomos:

"Wherefore we ought always to “guard” ourselves, test at any time we should fall asleep. For “Lo” (it is said) “he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep” (Ps. cxxi. 4), and “Do not suffer thy foot to be moved.” (Ps. cxxi. 3.) He did not say, ‘be not moved’ but “do not thou suffer,” &c. The suffering depends then on ourselves, and not on any other. For if we will stand “steadfast and unmoveable” (1 Cor. xv. 58), we shall not be shaken.
What then? Does nothing depend on God? All indeed depends on God, but not so that our free-will is hindered. ‘If then it depend on God,’ (one says), ‘why does He blame us?’ On this account I said, ‘so that our free-will is no hindered.’ It depends then on us, and on Him For we must first choose the good; and then He leads us to His own. He does not anticipate our choice, lest our free-will should be outraged. But when we have chosen, then great is the assistance he brings to us.

And secondly the other explanation may be given, that he speaks of all as His, whose the greater part is. For it is ours to choose and to wish; but God’s to complete and to bring to an end. Since therefore the greater part is of Him, he says all is of Him, speaking according to the custom of men. For so we ourselves also do. I mean for instance: we see a house well built, and we say the whole is the Architect’s [doing], and yet certainly it is not all his, but the workmen’s also, and the owner’s, who supplies the materials, and many others’, but nevertheless since he contributed the greatest share, we call the whole his. So then [it is] in this case also. Again, with respect to a number of people, where the many are, we say All are: where few, nobody. So also Paul says, “not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.”
And herein he establishes two great truths: one, that we should not be lifted up: even shouldst thou run (he would say), even shouldstthou be very earnest, do not consider that the well doing is thine own. For if thou obtain not the impulse that is from above, all is to no purpose. Nevertheless that thou wilt attain that which thou earnestly strivest after is very evident; so long as thou runnest, so long as thou willest.
He did not then assert this, that we run in vain, but that, if we think the whole to be our own, if we do not assign the greater part to God, we run in vain. For neither hath God willed that the whole should be His, lest He should appear to be crowning us without cause: nor again our’s, lest we should fall away to pride. For if when we have the smaller [share], we think much of ourselves, what should we do if the whole depended on us?"
664 posted on 11/19/2005 2:30:12 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
Your comments are very nice but they do not address the issues raised by my author.

So God doesn't know our choice???? Yet He foreknows us???? Doesn't this seem the least bit odd?

670 posted on 11/19/2005 4:12:46 PM PST by HarleyD (Joh 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.)
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