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To: 57chevypreterist
I grew up Catholic, spent 16 years in Catholic school and university, and was proudly Catholic for 32 years. NOT ONCE in all that time, did anyone ever explain to me how I could FOR SURE have eternal life.

So, they never told you that all who die in the state of grace go to heaven?

They never told you how to get into the state of grace?

They never told you how to stay in the state of grace once you got there?

Which is it? I ask, because I can guarantee that every one of those things is covered in the catechism.

By the way, there is no infallible assurance of salvation before death. St. Paul says so clearly in a number of places (1 Cor 9:24-10:12, Phil 3:12-14), as does Jesus. However, any Catholic who has made a good confession has a relative moral certainty that he would go to heaven if he died at that moment.

14 posted on 11/11/2005 6:30:51 AM PST by Campion (Truth is not determined by a majority vote -- Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: Campion
I respectfully submit that you are taking 1 Cor 9:24-10:12 out of context. Paul is referring to the use of the liberty that we have in Grace, as well as the path of believers toward Spiritual Maturity. In fact, the Corinthians were an awfully immoral group of believers, for which Paul scolds them many times. Yet he starts off the letter by referring to them as Saints who will be declared blameless in the last days. Never during his rants about their licentious behavior does he call their eternal position into question. He does however call into question their Earthly usefulness and focus. The confusion is between a believer's practical, Earthly walk, and their eternal position in Christ which Paul describes at length to be secure.

I believe (again, respectfully) that you are making the same error in your interpretation of Phil 3:12-14.

"Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus."

This indicates a desire for Paul on Earth to press on practically to the perfection that he already has, positionally and in the eternal realm, in Christ. Notice the reciprocal relationship. He wants to lay hold of that for which Christ HAS ALREADY laid hold of him. This is what Paul calls "working-out" your salvation. This is his call to act as one who is a citizen of heaven, as any believer is, and not act as though we were still enemies of God. Paul clearly states that a saint can "act" as if he were not.

Obviously, the contention for eternal security of the believer requires a more thorough analysis, including Hebrews, Ephesians, Galatians, Romans, and Corinthians, just to begin. It is an argument that is even intra-protestant. I would like to discuss this further with you, but I have kind of gotten weary of the Catholic/Protestant war on FR that doesn't really change anything and is more an opportunity to cause division among the followers of Christ than anything else. That being said, I do believe that the seal that I was given (the down-payment of my eternal inheritance in Christ) is stronger than any man's actions, including my own. For He is in fact a member of the Godhead, my Comforter, the Holy Spirit, and I am convinced that nothing can separate me from the Grace and Love of Christ. I do not presume to frustrate the grace of God by claiming that there is some sin in my life for which Christ's substitutionary atonement was not satisfactory, or somehow causes God to say "oops" and erase my name from the book of Life and break the very seal of the Holy Spirit.

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were SEALED in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."
191 posted on 11/11/2005 12:19:34 PM PST by madconservative
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To: Campion; 57chevypreterist
2nd Peter may be of interest here. +Peter gives a list of spiritual qualities that we, as christians, need to cultivate. He comments that the one who lacks these things is blind, as if he had never been baptized. On that basis, he encourages us to put some extra effort into it, so as to make our calling and election sure.
264 posted on 11/11/2005 1:22:33 PM PST by monkfan (What consumes your thoughts controls your life)
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