Posted on 11/11/2005 5:51:08 AM PST by NYer
I really do disagree when you say that the Scriptures and the teachings of the Church are different. Could you point out what you feel are the differences?
We do not worship the idols and statues. If they were broken in front of us, they would not signify a destruction of our God, they do not hold God and we do not believe they do -- we are not like Hindus who believe that their idols hold a fragment of their gods. However, it would be an insult to break them. They do not take the place of God, they are purely art.
Very good piece on the iconoclasts, x5. 57ch, I guess you would have many of the same doubts and viewpoints as the iconoclasts, would the explanations given by the orthodoxy (notice I use the small 'o' as what the eastern Church did was reflected in the western Church's thoughts)
Very good piece on the iconoclasts, x5. 57ch, I guess you would have many of the same doubts and viewpoints as the iconoclasts, would the explanations given by the orthodoxy (notice I use the small 'o' as what the eastern Church did was reflected in the western Church's thoughts) answer your doubts as well?
Quite right -- I would take Salvation by faith as follows: it's IMPOSSIBLE for us humans to meet God's strict criteria. But God WANTS us to be saved, so His divine mercy helps us to help ourselves. Our faith, our deeds etc. are nothing more than God working through us -- we truly do nothing more than surrendering to His will to do these deeds. And that is the action we take, that IS the point: we can't help doing good deeds because HE wills it, because we must show some amount of surrender to HIS will
I don't really think 57chevy has denigrated us Catholics, he seems to have just pointed out why he left and why he thinks we're wrong in a fairly civilised manner.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible
I think has has shown his only reasons for leaving were superficial falisies, and insulted Catholics whenever the oppurtunity has arisen.
He is more a testament to the sad state of some Catholic education and the sadder state of stuborn students than anything else.
Oh, boy. Sounds like fun.
When I state “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.” then these same people tell me this is “easy believability”-there are no guarantees. Well if there are no guarantees then perhaps it should be “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you MIGHT be saved if you’re really lucky and good. I guess God does want everyone to be saved but He’s going to make it REALLY difficult.
Don't you think that perseverance is a key theme in both the Gospels and the epistles of the NT? I think there is a tension between the Kingdom "already here" and the Kingdom "not yet" - the two views of Christian eschatalogy. In one sense, we are saved, healed, and are being prepared even now for heaven. In another sense, though, we are not there yet and WE can even turn away. Jesus teaches several parables to this effect - such as the Wise and Foolish Virgins. ALL were virgins, acceptable for entering heaven. BUT some were NOT ready at the moment of the Groom's arrival. Sometimes, it is hard to keep that balance. But it has always been there in the writings of the great Christians who have proceeded us.
There are indications that you are born again if you examine yourself.
You are missing my point. Of course, we can, should, and DO examine ourselves - our PRESENT selves. But how do YOU KNOW that you will continue down this same road? Again, perseverance. We don't know what our own future holds, so to say we are saved absolutely in the unforeseeable future is presumptuous.
1Jo 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.
TODAY! And of course, needless to say, the person has the free will to ignore John's advice. Who knows if one will heed it today, but in five years, fall away? Or perhaps hear about and join some Gnostic cult? Who can say what we will do? Persevere...
Westminster Confession of Faith:
It says "...this assurance (of salvation) may, in due time, be revived;[16] and by the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair.[17]"
Sounds like double-talk spin. "May"? What sort of language is that? How is one ASSURED of Salvation if one, falling away, MAY in due time be revived??? It talks about the "true" believer (whatever that means - is that a self-defining level of belief?). But from experience, the "true" believer of today CAN become the true agnostic of tommorrow. This, quite frankly, is no "assurance of salvation" no more than the Catholic idea of "moral assurance" of salvation.
Really, we can only be "sure" of our salvation, based on revelation and our own examination of ourselves, on today's me, not tommorrow or five years from today. This is a PRESENT assurance, which we don't disagree with. We place ourselves into the hands of the Lord, yet with confidence that we have not turned away from Him, that we have been "relatively" faithful and have loved others as He loved (a requirement for salvation, according to 1 John). But WHO is going to be so presumptuous to say that in 2010, when God comes calling, that they will STILL be following the Lord to the same degree or better? We just don't know.
2Ti 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.
Again, speaks of past or present actions, not future actions. That is why it is important to pray for perseverance, just as Paul does.
"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us" (Heb 12:1)
Good luck with the carpet.
Brother in Christ
And yet that most assuredly CANNOT be said about the Catholics here on FR. My fellow Catholics here know their Bible inside out.
Yep. Bible study is good. Bible reading is good. Bible hearing is good. And like Mary, many of us choose to ponder these things in our hearts.
Defy to find a Protestant Church that doesn't require it? What about the PRotestant denominations that support abortion? That's certainly not living as God requires.
Easy turbo, I didn't say all of them did, I asked how many did. I accused no one, merely suggested that many Protestant groups do treat it as such. Am I incorrect in this?
But it's true. Many, if not most, non-liturgical protestant churches are very clear about communion being a memorial only; no real presence in any sense of the word - and it is grape juice at a lot of them.
No true believer treats it as you suggest.
The Wise and the Foolish Virgins is an excellent example of the differences in our views. You think the foolish virgins failing to maintain their latterns is an indication of them losing their salvation. They took latterns with them but no oil??? The term "foolish" is a term almost always ascribed to unbelievers in scripture. Our Lord Jesus is merely saying the "foolish" virgins never were prepared to begin with (e.g. never accepted Him).
The fact all (foolish and wise) got "drowsy and began to sleep" is an indication that even the very wise would sometimes not be fully on guard. However, the wise virgins' latterns remained lit.
It certainly would be persumptuous of me to believe that I could maintain my "spirituality" (what little I have) for the rest of my life. The simple fact is, as the Westminster Confession states, I don't trust myself to maintain my spirituality. I trust God will help and see me through. God will not "lead me into temptation" and He will "deliver me from evil". Will I fail from time now to the time I die? Bet on it. Will God help me back on the path of righteousness for His name sake? Its a promise.
At the risk of sounding like an altar call or sounding preachy, you must place your trust in our Lord Jesus that He will see you through and He alone will help you to persevere. You can examine the present to see if you are in the faith-He will take care of the future. It is only then that you can rest on the promises of God's assurance.
As far as:
You stated: Again, speaks of past or present actions, not future actions. That is why it is important to pray for perseverance, just as Paul does. I would call your attention to the part I underlined. What exactly do you think our Lord Jesus is guarding that we have so entrusted to Him?
As far as you quote from Hebrews goes, Hebrews is an evangelistic message to the Jews and I find most of the quotes out of contexts.
You and I know how it should be treated. But there are countless Protestant churches who do not treat it as anything other than a memorial to take part in every now and then. To many Protestant churches it is nothing more than crackers and grape juice. I'm sure it is that to some people on this thread. Sad though it may be.
Yes they do. I was raised in a church before I converted to Catholicism that believed it was nothing but a memorial of the last supper, one we were enjoined to do, but not where Jesus is present in that special way that is the Catholic Eucharist.
A memorial. Where we felt linked, perhaps to a long history of Christians who did remember Jesus in the Lord's Supper as we thought of it. A resaying of the words. A return in mind, perhaps, to the crucifixion. But not a coming down of the real presence.
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