Posted on 11/11/2005 5:51:08 AM PST by NYer
Being born of God is God's act alone. God gives His elect a "new heart and spirit" as stated in Ezekial 36 solely based upon His grace and His grace alone.
Exactly. Which is why Catholics do not believe we can just declare ourselves "born again" and be done with it like some arbitrary decision. But Christ can clearly choose to bring salvation to those not of their own accord, but on accord of the faith of those around them. Being "born again" comes throught the sacrament of Baptism or the Baptism of Desire.
These are works and man can do nothing that pleases God prior to being born again.
So if Baptism is just a work, I presume you find it unnecessary? And if you DO find it necessary, and since it's just a work, why, as a Christian, do you follow something that is nothing but a tradition of man in that respect?
Absoultely we are created to do good works! No problem with that here. It's just that we are not saved by them; we are saved by Jesus' atonement on the cross.
Blessings!
Jesus said you must both beleive AND be baptised.
Why do you refuse to tell me what you feel is missing:
http://realserver.goarch.org/ram/en/sacraments_baptism.ram
Watch it, and explain why you feel this person is not born again, of both water and the holy spirit.
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. " Matthew 7:1-2
This coming from the guy who has summarily declared all Catholics are not "born again."
Try some self-awareness, dude. A little bit goes a long way.
SD
Yes, Jesus is strong enough to actually transform us, and He did it by grace through faith, as a result of what HE did on the cross and His high priestly work, NOT because WE go to church and receive the sacraments.
Either your faith in Jesus is sufficient for you to enter into eternal life, or it is not. If you want to receive the sacraments as a reminder of your faith, by all means, do it (I have). Just don't trust in a "ticket punch" to get you in; trust in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to remove your sin and reconcile you to God.
Blessings!
The beauty of what you just said is that it is exactly - EXACTLY - what the Catholic Church teaches.
We are not saved by works, but works serve to keep us from losing our faith - our inheritance of heaven. As sons of God through Baptism, we are entitled to heaven, and not of our own doing. But like any other heir, we can certainly THROW IT AWAY of our own doing.
We are saved by faith and Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross. But faith is a fig tree to be cut down and thrown into the fire unless it bears the good fruit of works. Don't forget the parable of the talents, either. You can't bury your faith in a field. You MUST invest it and bring dividends to those around you.
So what happened to the thief on the cross to whom Jesus promised that he would be with Him in paradise? After all, the thief did not have time to crawl down off of his cross and be baptized before he died.
Did Jesus lie to that thief? Or did Jesus promise him eternal life because of his faith (without baptism, by the way)?
Blessings!
And take up your cross and follow him...
I think you forget He said "Straight is the path, and narrow." It's not meant to be simple, it's meant to be a sacrifice. Also, "Many are called, few are chosen," and "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in Heaven.
Justin was martyred in 165, and the martyrs of Abitene in 303. The Roman military and tribunals kept great records of both. (Did you read post 79?) Also we have more letters Justin wrote, as well as letters by Ireneus, etc.
Why would they be accused of cannibalism? Why would they rather die than deny Jesus?
It drives me crazy when people ignore this well-documented history and gobble up books like the Davinci code from that a$$ clown Dan Brown.
No, no feelings hurt, it just makes a difference. "Catholic" means universal, no matter the usage, but one denotes the universal "church" while the other denotes the universal Church.
I've already explained this in this thread. Until Christ died on the cross and was resurrected there was no new covenant or new law. He died acording to the law given moses, as did everyone before that time.
You have borne false witness against me, in violation of the Ninth Commandment (oops, Eighth, for you Catholics who ignore the Second Commandment) LOL!
Why, then, the Last Supper and all that? Meals are mundanities. It would have no place in the Gospel given the volumes upon volumes of teachings that John promised us could not be recorded - unless it was more than just a dinner party.
The Sacraments are not a ticket punch. They're a gift that sanctifies us. The manna of the desert was no less miraculous just because the Hebrews grumbled about not having meat. The Sacraments are no less miraculous on the account of those who receive and grumble, too. Those who ate the manna (read: the Eucharist) and obeyed God were blessed. Those who rejected the manna and ate the meat were killed. The only people who think the Sacraments are a ticket punch are the kind of people who end up leaving the Church because they've chosen to build their faith on sand.
Yep.
Jesus said believe and be baptized (Mark 16:16)
Matthew 28:18-20 says:
Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."
Whether you want to call it a sacrament or an ordinance, it is one of the things Jesus told us to do.
There are a whole bunch of things Jesus first, and then the apostles in his name told us to do, whether you consider them works or not.
I wouldn't want to be the person who after death said, "Well, Lord, I love you, but I didn't want get in trouble for doing a work that would demonstrate I didn't trust your grace, so I never got baptized."
This is a little too close to the guy with one talent in the parable for my taste...
Personally, I think arguing about the mechanics of salvation is a trick of the devil. More important is that we stay busy like good servants doing what he asked us to do for love of him until he returns.
Again, it's not an either/or situation. It is quite possible to have faith in Jesus and believe that He instituted the sacraments as instruments to transform us.
Either your faith in Jesus is sufficient for you to enter into eternal life, or it is not. If you want to receive the sacraments as a reminder of your faith, by all means, do it (I have). Just don't trust in a "ticket punch" to get you in; trust in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to remove your sin and reconcile you to God.
One who goes through the motions of sacraments without faith is obtaining nothing.
You seem to be of the impression that all who believe in sacraments regard them as some type of "automatic" no-brainer, rote tool used to obtain salvation without any faith or transformation on our part.
There are many shallow Catholics, who do not understand their faith. Many of them become vehemently opposed to their own misunderstanding of the Faith when they leave it, never bothering to discover that others are not so shallow in their beliefs.
Don't indict others because of your prior poor attitude towards the Faith.
SD
Thank you--it is rather complete, I would say, but doesn't mean its right.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
2 Pet 2:1 [NIV] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Pet 2:2 [NIV] Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
2 Pet 2:3 [NIV] In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
So much for the idea that everyone who speaks will be doing so "as the Oracles." And think a little harder about it--perhaps we are being exhorted to be good in our words and actions, not speak with authority on matter that are up to Christ alone.
As far as baptizo goes, I know it means immersion--there is no question about that. It is the usage that is up for debate. The New Testament doens't give a manual about baptism, specifically saying you must be fully immersed. When Jesus went to the Pharisees house, "[t]he Pharisee was astonished to see that he did not first wash [baptizo] before dinner." (Luke 11:38) Jesus says in Luke "I have a baptism [baptisma] to be baptized [baptizo] with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!" (Luke 12:50) In Acts, "not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, ‘you heard from me, for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’" So they will be "immersed" with the Holy Spirit?
The meaning of baptizo is not disputed--it is the oversimplification or the misuse of the term.
Besides, if all we have to do is have faith in Christ, why get baptized anyway? I mean, that is an "action" or a "work," and we aren't supposed to do that...nor do we have to "confess with our lips," because that is an other act of "doing" something...
Your opennes is admirable.
We are all part of the Body of Christ. It is not up to me to say that Protestants are going to hell any more than I can say that Catholics are going to Heaven. We are all united in Christ, we just happen to disagree sometimes (through misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Bible). The most important thing is our devotion to Christ, and being sure that our devotion is rooted in truth.
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